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Post by MajorRacal on May 23, 2014 11:29:48 GMT -7
I can't argue with that. All the designs I've seen from that era official or no, are hideous. Truth be told, I'm not fond of most of the designs that came from the TNG era either.
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Post by Spocksbrain on May 23, 2014 11:53:59 GMT -7
I was talking about canon ships. I am completely unimpressed with the FASA TNG handbook and find my life is better if I pretend it never happened. LOL! That is hilarious.. I too, remember being completely aghast at what FASA presented us with in that particular manual, in large part. I think Brad, and others have redone a few of these ships. (Wasn't the "Royal Sovereign" a "Lost Era" ship?) As far as I was concerned, with the exception of the Ambassador and Constellation (which I personally really liked) the rest could stay "lost."
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Post by JAFisher44 on May 23, 2014 12:50:25 GMT -7
I can't argue with that. All the designs I've seen from that era official or no, are hideous. Truth be told, I'm not fond of most of the designs that came from the TNG era either. I like many TNG designs. I think the Galaxy is an ugly duckling, but she has grown on me somewhat over the years. I always liked Voyager though she could be a little more sleek. I like the Sovereign, Nova, Nebula and Defiant designs a lot. The Akira for me is an enigma. I like it on some levels, but on others it bothers me somehow. I can't put a finger on why exactly. The Steamrunner and Norway are just filler ships not particularly impressive, but neither too heinous. The Prometheus can kiss my ass. I hate it. LOL! That is hilarious.. I too, remember being completely aghast at what FASA presented us with in that particular manual, in large part. I think Brad, and others have redone a few of these ships. (Wasn't the "Royal Sovereign" a "Lost Era" ship?) As far as I was concerned, with the exception of the Ambassador and Constellation (which I personally really liked) the rest could stay "lost." I am torn on the Constellation. I like the basics of the design, but I am not fond of the random bumps and bulges. To me they just look like some guy with a bunch of plastic models said, "Hmmm, I need to add "detail" to this ship. Let's see what parts I can scavenge and glue on here!" Which is pretty much exactly what happened. Ships like the Constitution, Constitution refit, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, etc. were all designed and built from whole cloth by artists who are the top of their craft. Ships like the Soyuz and the Constellation are, by comparison, kitbashed hack-jobs.
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Post by trynda1701 on May 23, 2014 13:31:19 GMT -7
Yes, the Constellation class is an ugly one, to be sure. The kitbashing approach is annoying when, even on the Micromachines mini, you can see Constitution refit nacelle struts used as hull detailing. FASA's second attempt at a schematic, in the TNG First Year Sourcebook, here on the right... Image credits: FASA, Brad R. Torgersen. ...looks a lot better in comparison to the actual kitbashed filming model. I think that if they had just used a Miranda class primary hull, sans torpedo bay/rollbar, and added the nacelles and dorsal struts used on the actual Constellation filming miniature, we would have had a cooler, more consolidated design. Mark
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Post by JAFisher44 on May 23, 2014 13:53:46 GMT -7
I don't have a problem with the basic design of the Constellation. I just dont like the bumps on the bottom, and the random greebling. and yes, readily identifiable parts like the Constitution pylons and the Valkyrie body are annoying. It was forgivable on the original model that was just supposed to be a desk decoration and would never have been shown in high rez, but when they decided to do a filming model it is unforgivable that they didn't do a better job. Although, to be fair, the filming model was never really filmed in very high resolution itself.
Perhaps when I do the Constellation in Sketchup I'll do an accurate version, and an "idealized" version.
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Post by cowboy40 on May 23, 2014 15:39:33 GMT -7
I have to agree, the bumps and the little pointy probes on the hull really bother me, what bothers me the most is though how people tend use the points to say she has what they call megaphasers. UGGGGGG....I don't do super weapons. they make a captain lazy.....
they just don't do it for me
In the Kirk era, Constellation is already powerful enough, due to her standard weapons. and the way they are lid out. Fine Constellation is a bit of a thug in the TMP era, but FASA made her that way within their own building rules....They did it by playing with the number of torpedoes that she can fire.....I can accept that, because they were starting to do that with many of the classes. Look at the Andor, and even the Klingon and Romulan battleships were heading that way as well...
another good counter for the thugs is the fact that the numbers of these ships are limited in the TMP era, and those that did make it into the TNG time ....well by that time they are a bit dated in design...Both Excelsior and Constellation are rather run of the mill compared to a Galaxy or even Nebula class ships. Hell even the Ambassador class is having trouble competing against the later classes of ships.
I don't like the Soyez class at all........well you just got to love budgets on TV shows and in the military.....
But given my general dislikes i have talked about above I will admit the Constellation has grown on me, as long as you don't try to turn her into an ubbership...
Fanboys can be a pain in the ass...
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Anthony Scott
Lieutenant Commander
Oh my bairns! My poor, poor bairns!
Posts: 201
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Post by Anthony Scott on May 24, 2014 7:28:26 GMT -7
The TMP ships seemed to mirror the optimistic caution of the late 70's and early '80's...the beginning to the Reagan era. These ships seemed to embody the cautious spirit of the times. Going into space with peaceful intentions but carrying enough fire power to defened one self but also one's allies and interests.
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Post by Spocksbrain on May 24, 2014 22:29:34 GMT -7
I really don't understand why everyone seems to loath the Constellation design. I thought it was creative and cool looking at the time. (Bumps and all) I was excited to see new, unfamiliar starships on TNG.
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Post by cowboy40 on May 24, 2014 23:55:30 GMT -7
I don't think I said I didn't like the Constellation...
What i said is it is hard to place in the game...A bit too strong for Kirk era, and little run of the mill in Picard era..
I also said I don't like how people tend to turn her into an ubbership with weapons that are preposterous.
I don't like fanboy designs.....
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Post by JAFisher44 on May 25, 2014 0:02:14 GMT -7
I don't like her! I think she had potential, but that potential was squandered by hackery!
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Post by cowboy40 on May 25, 2014 7:39:54 GMT -7
I do have to defend the design of Constellation. No, I don't like the bubbles and pointy probes, but there are several parts of the ship that make seance to me.
First off this ship is suppose to be about the size of a Constitution Refit on steroids., and to that point the size of her hull makes since to me. You have to have a lot of room for engineering, research labs, weapons, crew accommodations, electronics and so on. So, the size of the hull I am good with. that hull has to also hold shuttles.
FASA's Treatment of weapons on the class makes since to me as well. This ship is designed to well provide a balance of firepower. You will notice it has powerful phasers that have about the same range as the torpedoes she carries. Her torpedo load out is designed to provide alot of damage potential, and her phsers are now primarily used to deliver what might be considered the percise blow that the torpedo guidance of the time wouldn't allow. This weapons lay out actually works quite well, once you learn it and what it can do. It does take practice with this ship....
I do like the FASA schematic, the second one, but I do use the canon schematic.
As I said you have to really think and apply assumptions to the type to make it work. I like the direction that FASA was taking the class.
I have stated before in Kirk's era, this monster was rare and only probably one or two were in the fleet to be used as POC (proof of concept) ships. Once the Enterprise=Constitution Refit class started to be withdrawn, I can see this ship stepping up take her place as one of the premier cruisers during the early years of the lost era....
It is clear by the time Picard took command of USS Stargazer, the design had been pushed well beyond what could be done with it. It was considered almost obsolescent at that time of the TNG era. Fact in point the USS Hathaway had been pulled from the reserve and recommissioned for the war game when Riker was given command of her.
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Post by tinker on Jun 19, 2014 10:08:52 GMT -7
I have always had trouble figuring out the Constellation/Stargazer fit within the Star Trek timeline. The Excelsior is a logical progression from the Constitution ships. It is more sleek and modern looking.
While the Constellation has four nacelles, it looks more primitive than the Constitution and why would Star Fleet build it? What purpose does it fulfill that the Excelsior or Miranda can't do already?
It just doesn't seem to fit.
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Post by rarcher on Jun 19, 2014 11:53:41 GMT -7
I've always better pictured the Constellations as having excelsior styled nacelles myself at least in my mind, while in practice its just the older style TMP era ones given the TNG era mirandas and arguably excelsiors didnt get newer ones ala Ent-C to me
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trekcross
Lieutenant
All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.....
Posts: 175
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Post by trekcross on Jun 19, 2014 13:48:41 GMT -7
Originally the "Lost Era" was a big mystery, but Brad's site actually filled in enough holes with his Romulan and Klingon fleets with his V-33 and P'vael for the Romulans, and then the addition to D-33 and D-39 class ships. I have especially had fun with the Archer or Triton that Brad created for several missions.
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Post by tinker on Jun 21, 2014 15:21:42 GMT -7
Originally the "Lost Era" was a big mystery, but Brad's site actually filled in enough holes with his Romulan and Klingon fleets with his V-33 and P'vael for the Romulans, and then the addition to D-33 and D-39 class ships. I have especially had fun with the Archer or Triton that Brad created for several missions. Given what we know now - it appears that there is no "lost era" of ships....for the Klingons at least. We have seen the K'Tinga and Bird of Prey continuing to serve in the Klingon armed forces alongside the newer Vor'cha, Negh'Var and Voodieh. The Romulans have a far stranger record in the various ST movies and TV shows. Where we see several transitional ships for the Federation and Klingons, it seems that the entirety of the Romulan Fleet is composed of the D'Deridex until the introduction of the Valdore (in terms of military vessels anyway). So what happened to these older ships? Were they scrapped for resources to build the newer ones? Were they all sacrificed during whatever happened during the 50 years of Romulan seclusion? It is hard to say.
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Post by rarcher on Jun 21, 2014 19:00:40 GMT -7
Early TNG shows us two other designs for the rommies a destroyer and scout ship (both the same model just having slight color variations) so there are those too...so i guess if you figure that the major newer TMP era rommie designs got refitted through the 50 odd years till TNG that they still serve, we just dont see them in TNG/DS9
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jun 22, 2014 12:07:20 GMT -7
Given what we know now - it appears that there is no "lost era" of ships....for the Klingons at least. We have seen the K'Tinga and Bird of Prey continuing to serve in the Klingon armed forces alongside the newer Vor'cha, Negh'Var and Voodieh. The Romulans have a far stranger record in the various ST movies and TV shows. Where we see several transitional ships for the Federation and Klingons, it seems that the entirety of the Romulan Fleet is composed of the D'Deridex until the introduction of the Valdore (in terms of military vessels anyway). So what happened to these older ships? Were they scrapped for resources to build the newer ones? Were they all sacrificed during whatever happened during the 50 years of Romulan seclusion? It is hard to say. This is part of why I take Star Trek canon with a grain of salt. What we see on screen is heavily influenced by filming budget. Sure on occasion they may splurge on a Federation ship, Even if its just a hack job like a Constellation or a Soyuz, but Other Species are going to get little love. Because it is so expensive to make a new model they just aren't goint to bother to build "Lost Era" Ships for Romulans and Klingons. At first blush it would seem not to matter much since there is little coverage of the "Lost Era". But later when you have large fleets that include all the ships that have been pressed back into service you end up with what we have now. When they create large fleets they can only show the ships that they have to film. What we see then seems to imply that the same ships served over all that time. It works for putting a large number of ships on the screen, but when it's offered to a fan base like us it gets picked apart for all the meaning it was never intended to have.
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Post by tinker on Jun 22, 2014 18:53:50 GMT -7
Hmmmm......I'm not sure I agree with that conclusion.
In the case of the Romulans, if the budget was so small, why did they build a second D'deridex for the Romulans instead of a new design? By the time of DS9, many of the ships were being built in a virtual world and yet again, there is no variety for the other powers.
In the case of the Federation, the producers went out of their way to build a huge variety of ships for Starfleet in DS9 while leaving the other races very limited...when they really didn't have to. I believe it was to emphasize the difference between a culture that embraces the differences among the races within its sphere of influence and the other powers that subjugated them. I don't think that the K'Tinga was included in the Klingon fleet for purely budgetary reasons. After all, it made very limited appearances in earlier episodes and later ones were CG models when....again, there was an opportunity to come up with something completely different.
The Federation Fleet included Miranda and Excelsior class ships from TMP era - so the producers were conscious of maintaining a level of continuity from this time period 50 years prior to TNG.
The Klingon fleet makes sense from a continuity standpoint as well. At the end of TMP series, the Klingons were economically ruined by the disaster at Praxus and it would not be feasible for them to produce any new designs in the 50 years of the "lost era"...keeping any production going at all would have been a struggle.
The Romulans are the interesting anomaly. They were completely secluded during the lost era and seem to have re-emerged with a host of spanking brand new ships. Prior to Enterprise showing an older Klingon BoP, it was still assumed that the newer version was actually a Romulan design (which is why the Valdore shares a common theme with it). Why not include a "green" BoP for the Romulans to represent an older ship?
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jun 22, 2014 23:21:25 GMT -7
Hmmmm......I'm not sure I agree with that conclusion. In the case of the Romulans, if the budget was so small, why did they build a second D'deridex for the Romulans instead of a new design? By the time of DS9, many of the ships were being built in a virtual world and yet again, there is no variety for the other powers. Building CGI ships is also expensive. Not as expensive as real filming models, but still expensive. As for the second D'deridex model the actual reason may never be known, but it has been speculated that it was built to "give an in-house model crew something to do to justify billing the production company for it...and to maintain its existence." As to why they made another D'deridex instead of something else, I can only speculate. My first guess was that they didn't have anything else designed for the team to make. In the case of the Federation, the producers went out of their way to build a huge variety of ships for Starfleet in DS9 while leaving the other races very limited...when they really didn't have to. Please elaborate on "huge variety of ships". I believe it was to emphasize the difference between a culture that embraces the differences among the races within its sphere of influence and the other powers that subjugated them. I don't think that the K'Tinga was included in the Klingon fleet for purely budgetary reasons. After all, it made very limited appearances in earlier episodes and later ones were CG models when....again, there was an opportunity to come up with something completely different. It was used because the model was already paid for and available. Later, a CG model was made for one because it had already been established that they were still around, and two, because it also costs money to pay someone to design new ship types. The Federation Fleet included Miranda and Excelsior class ships from TMP era - so the producers were conscious of maintaining a level of continuity from this time period 50 years prior to TNG. The Federation fleet contained Excelsior and Miranda Class starships because those models were already made and paid for. They would have included Constitution Class refit ships as well, but they didn't want them hogging the stage. The Stargazer was originally supposed to use the Enterprise model but they decided to go with something new for that reason. The Klingon fleet makes sense from a continuity standpoint as well. At the end of TMP series, the Klingons were economically ruined by the disaster at Praxus and it would not be feasible for them to produce any new designs in the 50 years of the "lost era"...keeping any production going at all would have been a struggle. The loss of one moon should not be a devastating blow that brings a space empire to its knees. Certainly not for 50 years. The Romulans are the interesting anomaly. They were completely secluded during the lost era and seem to have re-emerged with a host of spanking brand new ships. Prior to Enterprise showing an older Klingon BoP, it was still assumed that the newer version was actually a Romulan design (which is why the Valdore shares a common theme with it). Why not include a "green" BoP for the Romulans to represent an older ship? My understanding of the Romulans is that they are extremely secretive and very paranoid. They closely guard their secrets and for that reason they have one (very powerful) kind of ship that is used in roles where other factions might encounter it. Eventually we get "behind the veil" as it were, and see some other ships and find out that in fact there is even another race of Romulans: Remans, who have their own ships. But still we only see a little. Of course you are welcome to your own interpretations of how things are. But I think my statements stand. Most of what we see is due to the restrictions of making a TV show. Even the bulk of variety in the Federation was made available to us because of movie budgets which then later got pulled into the show because it was already done.
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Post by tinker on Jun 25, 2014 19:47:46 GMT -7
Hmmmm......I'm not sure I agree with that conclusion. In the case of the Romulans, if the budget was so small, why did they build a second D'deridex for the Romulans instead of a new design? By the time of DS9, many of the ships were being built in a virtual world and yet again, there is no variety for the other powers. Building CGI ships is also expensive. Not as expensive as real filming models, but still expensive. As for the second D'deridex model the actual reason may never be known, but it has been speculated that it was built to "give an in-house model crew something to do to justify billing the production company for it...and to maintain its existence." As to why they made another D'deridex instead of something else, I can only speculate. My first guess was that they didn't have anything else designed for the team to make. The difference in cost between building a second, subtly different model and a completely new one is not significant. Yes, the second D'deridex was built to maintain employment, but again they could have had them build something a bit different. Akira, Ambassador, Centaur, Challenger, Cheyenne, Curry, Defiant.....do I really need to go on? That is enough to make it cannon. Again, the cost of designing a new CG model instead of replicating an existing design is not significant - as "Enterprise" clearly shows us a greater variety of ships (even ones designed that failed to appear on the show). Which again, is enough to make it cannon. TNG is just fifty years after TMP era - look at the navies today that include ships that are quite old. Heck, our Air Force still flies B-52s that are being piloted by the grandchildren of the pilots who initially flew them. Why is this so hard of a concept for you to understand? According to the movie, the Klingons would become extinct and the Klingon Empire would cease to exist without Federation economic aide - this was at the very foundation of the movie's plot....how could you miss that? True - but we still don't see anything "vintage"...which is my point. I think that the producers wanted to give us the impression that something...drastic(?)...happened during that missing 50 years and the Romulans no longer have anything left from that desperate time. I am not disputing the "movie budget" as a legitimate reason for some limitations in variety - I am only pointing out that there are legitimate canon reasons for what we see as well and that they should not be discarded. During the large fleet actions in DS9, it would not have been a significant investment for the producers to include SOME variation among the Romulan fleet and more variation among some of the other races - even at the expense of what they invested in the Federation.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jun 26, 2014 4:19:07 GMT -7
Well, you are free to imagine any old thing you'd like. There is no way to know the reasons they did things unless they state those reasons. To me it is clearly a case of budget limitations. If it makes you happy to attribute it to some grand hidden commentary on the differences in the races, by all means attribute away. Anyway, I'm done with this conversation, it's not going to go anywhere.
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Post by jeffwright on Jun 27, 2014 12:50:39 GMT -7
Here are some early concept sketches from the artists of ST3. Clearly, they were thinking "bigger, better, faster" and going with 4 nacelles for show of power.(whether that actually means anything or not, I don't know.) But as in real life, size is often equated with luxury and raw power. No doubt, the design evolution was going in that direction. If nothing else, for dramatic screen presence. Brad has expressed his own thoughts on the matter here in the Federation ships pages, and I tend to agree. How much bigger did they really need to make these ships? The imagination runs wild.. Here is another early sketch/design of a possible Excelsior: That upside down Reliant design was modeled over at the TrekBBS some time ago...
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Post by cowboy40 on Oct 26, 2020 16:20:33 GMT -7
I have been looking back over some of my old posts...well to answer the question of one of those lost era ships that you can find in the TNG Officer's Manual. would have to be the Decker class. The blurb makes it clear she is a contemporary to the Excelsior. This puts this class at the tail end of the TMP era and into the lost era. When she was launched the Decker would probably have been considered along the same lines as the Reliant class light cruisers. Her weapons load would confirm this. She is more powerful then the later Reliants, but a less effective ship then the later Enterprise class ships. So going into the lost era the Excelsior would be your battleship, your base of fire, Constellation would be your heavy cruiser and the Decker would be used as your light cruiser that would support the bigger boys.
By the time of TNG, you find the Decker working in the fleet as a destroyer. It would be doing this along side the remaining Reliant class ships. I believe the Constellation in this era has to be considered feeling the light cruiser role, while the Excelsior would be done feeling the heavy cruiser role. So were does that put our beloved Connies. Well if there is any Enterprise class ships still in service by the time NCC-1701-D joins the fleet; well they are probably more like doing the frigate role.
just some thoughts
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