Religions in Star Trek (not the real world)

[Deleted]

Disappointing, but not unexpected.
The offer does not have an expiration date, and you are welcome to stop by whenever you like. I'm sure the other forum members would enjoy seeing some of your brother's videos - the Tiger Moth is a wonderful old plane. Rare also (fewer than 90 registered in the US) so any pics or vids would be quite welcomed.

[Gorn]

I have nothing to contribute, as I am sure nobody violates the physics of aerodynamics there with utter bullshit beliefs.

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2017 6:53:55 GMT -7 Gorn said:

I have nothing to contribute, as I am sure nobody violates the physics of aerodynamics there with utter bullshit beliefs.

Actually Gorn , you can absolutely contribute. Just hanging out is contributing - especially aviation threads. Posting your brother's aerobatic vids would ab another great way to contribute. It's not a thread about aviation knowledge, if that were the case I would just say cowboy40 is the guru, and leave it at that. Aviation threads are about planes.

But I don't want to badger you. If you chose not to accept an amicable invitation, then that is your decision.

[Deleted]

Aug 2, 2017 21:51:02 GMT -7 Gorn said:

I read AND passed the 2 term course of Historical Geology that shows how easily Organic Chemistry can arise on planets in the Goldilocks zones of solar systems. I would say it's obvious you haven't read it, given your comments about abiogenesis.

congrats on passing! good feeling! maybe old data tho...

theres more 2 life than goldilox zone.

If the star is 2 small planets in the g-lox zn are tidally locked. one side fries one side freezes - bad for life.
has 2 be a stable star = stable hab zn
has 2 be right class of star - B O and A burn out 2 quick.
system has 2 have enough metal to form iron core in rock planets to have mag field/rad shield.
planet has 2 be big enough to hold atmo.
planet has 2 have roundish orbit, and right day/night periods.

blah, blah, blah...wikipedia

chem react can make life but it won't always stick around

bsides, takes billins of yrs to make life, nasa gets snapshots - so maybe...maybe not...

[Deleted]

Different thread, guys.

Anyway, it appears as though Kirk is at least a little religious.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982)
[after being surrounded by Klingons in a starship simulator]
Saavik: Any suggestions, Admiral?
Kirk: Prayer, Mr. Saavik. The Klingons don't take prisoners.

He mentions God or gods a few other times in a context that would make me think he has some level of faith.
"Man has no need for gods. We find the one quite sufficient"

The Borg religion came straight from Brannon Braga, so it must be true... right?
"No, there was no consideration in giving humans, talking about God, or talking about those types of things. We wanted to avoid it to be quite frank. But we did very often explore theology through alien characters. Which frankly is much more interesting anyway. Whether it was the Bajorans and their religion or the Borg and their religion. They had the religion of perfection. That, I think, was more interesting. We want to keep Star Trek secular. The human facet of Star Trek secular." (Brannon Braga, transcript from his former website)

I'll give Braga a pass on this and assume he was being overly poetic. But I do agree that delving into theology via alien cultures was quite interesting (most of the time). 

[Gorn]

I think one would find delving into religion via alien races interesting only when one is religious.
The Bajorans were boring with their nonstop religious babble.
It also seems that religion gets stated more depending on the script writer. It is certainly the case for the DC comics, although they aren't canon.

[Deleted]

A reasonable point. I found the exploration of alien religions interesting for different reasons perhaps.

The Bajorans were not terribly interesting people. Despite the writers' efforts, the Bajoran religion was just not all that interesting. That being said, the Bajorans were of interest mainly because of their religion. It was interesting to watch all the crappy things they did in the name of that religion - like blowing up a school or screwing each other over at the faintest hint of an opportunity to gain power. There was some entertaining intrigue among the vedics, and between the vedic assembly and politicians (both of whom were vying for leadership of Bajor).

More interesting (I am currently re-watching DS9) is how the founders set themselves up in a manner similar to the pharaohs. They are like Gods who walk among their mortal subjects. The Vorta and Jem'hadar's loyalty was basically unquestioned since they were "Believers". You make someone a religious zealot, and they won't question your orders. It is as Gorn and others have stated, a form of control or oppression over its followers.

Not a lot of potlucks, fish fries, or bake sales in Star Trek religions.

[IanKeldon]

In "Balance of Terror" Specialist Martine genuflected when she approached the podium, which would have been considered the altar. This was an example of human religion, namely Catholicism, which would have been a very daring statement in the US in the 60s (where anti-Catholic sentiments were widespread).

In TNG Data references the Hindu religious Festival of Lights.

In DS9, Sisko's father is shown to be religious (some denomination of Christian).

Humans still have plenty of religion, it just isn't shown that often.

Oh, regarding Klingons, they have both Sto-vo-kor (Viking-style heaven) and Gre'thor (Hell analog).

[starcruiser]

I would suspect that Human religion is still very much alive - at least in the 23rd century. I would also expect that most would temper their faith with education and a more open mind rather than considering others (atheists, other religions etc.) to be inferior.

Basically, religion would be a very personal thing, much like most matters we focus too much on in this time - like race, color, gender etc...

[Gorn]

Speak for yourself: race, color, gender is usually not an issue in my neck of the woods - at least it could be said it is far far less of an issue than it is with alarming regularity further South.

Religions have to give things back to the community to be seen as 'good'; it's easy to appease the uneducated with a pot luck and appeal to harmony - that easily hides the motivations of the manipulators.
I liked very much how Edith Keeler didn't mention religion at all. It was just entirely out of character in a setting that it would most certainly have been highly pushed. Any visiting authoritarian would have outed her relatively quickly for dropping religion behind their backs; assuming it wasn't her own place she was opening up of her own accord.

[starcruiser]

Race, color, gender etc... Not as big an issue in most of the southern states either.

The sad thing is - I knew a very sharp black man in Alabama, where you would expect the racism to be palpable, who had lived in the north some years before. He said, it's actually MUCH worse up north (I believe he said Ohio but, it's been quite some years) than in Alabama.

The difference is, in the north - it's not "right in your face" - it's more subtle and more common than you realize. In the south, what there still is of it, is more open and honest. At least you know where you stand and can deal with it appropriately. If you don't know you're dealing with a racist SOB, you don't know why you didn't get the job, or were refused a loan etc.

[Deleted]

Ya'll want to talk about racism, that's a different thread.

Clearly, there are intentional parallels between the Bajoran religion and the real-world Catholic church. What would have made it really interesting would have been a "Luther Martin" to nail his 95 theses to the door of the Vedek Assembly. Perhaps thankfully, we were treated to the Dominion war (just not the fleet battles because all the SFX money was going to the shit-storm that was Voyager).

Maybe it would have been a good sub-plot to have some Bajoran "Knights Templar" who were the scourge of the Cardassians until they are betrayed by the Vedek Assembly, and killed on a star date ending in 13. Only a few survived, and one is taking refuge on the station, seeking aid from the Emissary. Just the fact that Starfleet would find out about their betrayal would cause panic in the Assembly and the Government.

It's not that religion in Star Trek had to be dull, they just never explored it very well. The writers did not want religion to be a part of Star Trek, so it was never really presented in any good light.

[Gorn]

I can only imagine that after 300 years, the bubble of the unknown that is attributed to religion would have shrunken immensely; there would be very little space at all for a god of the gaps to occupy.
Very few people today worship Zeus or Odin. I could easily imagine that being the case for christianity in Kirk's time.
The Bajorans are a perfect example of religion's insanity; their prophets are proven to be an alien race, yet they go on worshiping them. There is great corruption and dictatorship in the highest ranks, yet they go on submitting to them instead of imprisoning them. All they can do is babble and gush about their religion. They're more 2 dimensional than the villains.

[Deleted]

You do know that not all religions worship Gods, right?

[Gorn]

Yes, I am aware of that claim. Since religion is an unwarranted belief in a supernatural guiding power, it appears the vast majority would be invisible magic skydaddies. If there's some other system in place, it would seem to have been imposed by the same.
I'm not really interested much in delving deep into what the various psychoses make up for their fantasies.

[Deleted]

Neat! someone posted so this is not technically a double-post 

Would the worship of a member of the "Q" continuum be a religion? It is not the worship of a God. It would actually have a Magic Skydude (who may or may not choose to be invisible).

If you ask for something, a Q can make it appear. Ask that your enemies be vanquished; a Q can do it. Ask that the blind see, the lame walk, or that the dead return to life, and a Q can do it without a snap of his fingers. Point to anything written in any holey book, and a Q can make it happen.

All he asks in return as that you entertain him in some manner (at least the "Q" we know of in TNG and DS9). And these folks would know that Q was not a God, just alien guy with all the powers normally ascribed to a god. But so what?

Would it kill a race to pick a few laurel leaves if they get something good out of it?

Of course, after a while the Q would tire of granting wishes and stop. Then he would lose his worshipers (as happened to Zeus, et al). At which point he leaves to go find a new race to mess with, or wipes out the existing race save for a few hard core believers who he finds entertaining.

Or not... it's just a TV show, after all.

[starcruiser]

Wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean?

[Gorn]

Worshiping something is religion. It's using faith. It's very likely trying to use non existent telepathy. Its modifying your choices and your life in order to align with what the target of your worship "must" want.
It hardly matters if the target is Q. Since Q can manipulate higher dimensions to the extent his powers appear as what was attributed to gods, the distinction is academic. Even Apollo, somewhat weaker than Q, was considered a god. If such advanced aliens exist (yes, ok, NOW) how many of stupid humans would call them the very gods we were talking about all along?

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2017 0:06:11 GMT -7 Gorn said:

Worshiping something is religion. It's using faith. It's very likely trying to use non existent telepathy. Its modifying your choices and your life in order to align with what the target of your worship "must" want.
It hardly matters if the target is Q. Since Q can manipulate higher dimensions to the extent his powers appear as what was attributed to gods, the distinction is academic. Even Apollo, somewhat weaker than Q, was considered a god. If such advanced aliens exist (yes, ok, NOW) how many of stupid humans would call them the very gods we were talking about all along?

damn...

you say you're not going to respond to someone's stupid shit, and they go an up the ante... I mean - wow...

Well... I guess it's a good thing I keep waders around.

Gorn, if you are in the not-real TV reality of Star Trek, and Q comes to your planet saying "I'm not a god (I'm form of life so advanced that your tiny brains can't even fully comprehend me), but if you entertain me, I will grant you wishes", and then proceeds to grant a few wishes in order to demonstrate his power (which Q seem to enjoy doing). You have actual proof that he is what he says he is. Where there is actual proof, there is no room for faith (as narrowly defined in the highly abridged 1st Edition of the rarely read Gorn's Dictionary of a Small Part of the English Language). Even Douglas Adams hit on that in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (and Gorn quoted it in another thread), when he stated that if there is proof (which there would be in this case), there can be no faith. Without faith there is no religion. Clearly no one is worshiping a god in this hypothetical instance (that was noted in the post to which you so feebly attempted to respond), because they are worshiping a Q, who is, by definition not a god at all. A being who by Gorn's own definition, and insistance is not a god.

In the reality of this reality, worship of something is a religion because that something isn't there, and therefore requires faith, thus making it a religion (even through there are real religions in the real reality that have no gods). But in the non-reality of the Star Trek reality, the worship something that actually is real, and will go to great lengths to prove that it does, in fact exist, might not be considered a religion at all.

Actually, quite the opposite. If something is real, can prove that it is real, and requires you to perform certain acts in order to receive certain goods and/or services, it is clearly not a religion, but by all the evidence available it is a government.

[Gorn]

It doesn't matter if the intelligentsia do not consider Q a god. The feeble minded worshipers do, despite proof otherwise. That is faith, and no, it is not a definition from "Gorn's Dictionary of a Small Part of the English Language", it is a definition from any good dictionary "a belief held contrary to facts". So you can stop with that bullshit.
The Bajorans pulled exactly the same thing finding out their prophets were aliens. They didn't stop worshiping them. They didn't lose their faith. Kirk HAD to stop Apollo because Apollo insisted that he be worshiped. It was basically the same thing in Kirk's dream we called ST V.
Thank you for proving my point once again, that in the reflection of the human condition that is Trek; Religion Poisons Everything.
damn...

I say I'm going to respond to someone's stupid shit, and they go an[sic] up the ante... I mean - wow...

Well... I guess it's a good thing I keep waders around.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2017 5:59:14 GMT -7 Gorn said:

Well... I guess it's a good thing I keep waders around.

You copied my post as part of your post. That's so sweet. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I am sincerely flattered, but I would not have expected that from you, Gorn . I'm deeply touched. And in your post you even tried to "sound" like me. That is just deeply flattering. Thank-you, I'm glad I garner that level of respect from you. Perhaps this is an indication that we can reconcile our differences and get along a little better from this point forward. I'm sure the forum and the Moderator would appreciate that.

But rest of your post, however,  is weapons-grade bullshit...
The worshippers of Q have proof that Q is real, that he is not a god but an advanced alien being, and they accept that proof, therefore there is no faith.

Without faith there is no religion.

[Gorn]

No, you should have no doubt, it's mockery. I'm sure you know that. I was pretty overt. Guess the first part of your post was weapons grade bullshit.

The worshipers of Q have facts that Q is real. Yet they continue to worship him despite these facts as if he were god itself; because he's close enough for them. "a belief held contrary to facts". That is faith. That's what they've got.

Guess the rest of your post is weapons-grade bullshit.

[Deleted]

Awhhh. I'm sad now.

[Gorn]

"You were sad before that."

-Jim Pastis, Pearls Before Swine

[cowboy40]

I am Mormon, but i came to my belief, in God, along a long and arduous path. I went through many things in my life including turning away from Christianity at a young age, due to things i perceived at that time; I won't discus those things, because they don't matter here for this talk.

As i journeyed down this path of life i discovered i still had a belief system, if not in God, one that tells me that there was a moral path, and need to better myself, so i became a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. I still follow and read the teachings of the Dalai Lama, and i still take that walk along the path of self enlightenment. {I feel i should point out that Buddhism has no deity.}

Even on this path or enlightenment I learned i still was missing something, and that was the acceptance of a supreme being, who could and did establish and create everything. I see the evidence all around me that this wasn't just a big bang or a random meeting of proteins that created the universe and living creatures throughout the galaxies {and yes i believe in life on other planets}. There is no such thing as a coincidence, and well I do believe in intelligent design...a.k.a....God.

I guess all that i am saying is that being religious (which i don't claim to be) is a personal belief and path based on our life experiences. I consider myself a spiritual man based on that path!