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Post by walrusguy on Oct 2, 2018 7:57:27 GMT -7
Wow! I'm glad to see so many folks weighing in.
Swede - I'd love to see you spreadsheet...are all the numbers close? (I've got a massive one with EVERY possibility - it ain't pretty!)
I think I'm gonna keep the higher numbers. They just seem to make more sense too me.
Back to the original subject - I think I'm going to add the torpedoes on our web pages. Brad has all the unchanged versions over here - and I'll make a note on our pages to come over here for the "original" book versions. My final reasoning is that the Mk II/III Constitution that encounters a D-7a would significantly outgun and out class it - yet it's supposed to be dangerous. HOWEVER - with a KP-2...it's a WHOLE lot more even of a match up.
Thanks everyone for you input!
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 2, 2018 13:23:57 GMT -7
Wow! I'm glad to see so many folks weighing in. Swede - I'd love to see you spreadsheet...are all the numbers close? (I've got a massive one with EVERY possibility - it ain't pretty!) I think I'm gonna keep the higher numbers. They just seem to make more sense too me. Back to the original subject - I think I'm going to add the torpedoes on our web pages. Brad has all the unchanged versions over here - and I'll make a note on our pages to come over here for the "original" book versions. My final reasoning is that the Mk II/III Constitution that encounters a D-7a would significantly outgun and out class it - yet it's supposed to be dangerous. HOWEVER - with a KP-2...it's a WHOLE lot more even of a match up. Thanks everyone for you input! I think I've posted the spreadsheet here somewhere once before. I'll do a little search when I get home from work and see. If not, I'll post it again. On your second point though, there is a flaw in your reasoning. The D-7A isn't a match for a Mk-II or III Constitution because it isn't a contemporary of those two upgrades. The D-7C would be closer to the same time frame as the Mk-II, closely followed by the D-7G (the one that uses the Romulan RPL-1). The D-7M, or K'Tinga is the contemporary to the Mk-III Constitution. The M was commissioned on FASA date 2/1105 while the Mk-III Connie was 2/1202. The D-7R (which sees the return of the RPL-1) actually comes out a month after the Connie! The D-7A comes from the Four Years War era. At that time, the Federation (according to FASA) only had lasers and accelerator cannons. The two ships are fairly close in combat capability if you take this into account. FASA's own numbers put the Combat Efficiency at 11.14 for the D-7A and 8.01 for the Connie Mk-I. Now granted, I think the Connie's numbers are incorrect (I recalculated the WDF to be around 18 according to the Second Edition Construction Manual), but nevertheless, even at 18 it comes in only slightly higher than the D-7A. That being said, I'm not against the idea. |
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Post by trynda1701 on Oct 2, 2018 15:08:20 GMT -7
Interesting discussion about the Klingon torpedoes, never did understand the lower values when I eventually heard about them. tinkerI've never played the White Flame scenarios. I'd seen the booklet (our GM had a copy), but only got my own copy a few years ago. What don't you like about the product? |
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Post by tinker on Oct 2, 2018 20:22:55 GMT -7
tinkerWhat don't you like about the product? The scenarios were completely unrealistic (even for Star Trek). One scenario pits a single V-30 Winged Defender against the entire squadron of Klingon ships in wide open space with the stipulation that it could not retreat and had to fight to the death. Never mind that the Romulan SRM states these ships ALWAYS operate with an escort and the Romulans don't sacrifice ships so readily. No challenge for the Klingon players at all. |
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 2, 2018 21:30:25 GMT -7
tinkerWhat don't you like about the product? The scenarios were completely unrealistic (even for Star Trek). One scenario pits a single V-30 Winged Defender against the entire squadron of Klingon ships in wide open space with the stipulation that it could not retreat and had to fight to the death. Never mind that the Romulan SRM states these ships ALWAYS operate with an escort and the Romulans don't sacrifice ships so readily. No challenge for the Klingon players at all. I know that mission, and if you read up the backstory, it kind of makes sense. First of all, the V-30 (type 2) had to survive 12 turns against two D-10Gs and an L-9B, it would then be assisted by two CS-2 Type 6 Graceful Flyers (not much, but certainly not un-escorted). The Romulan commander deduced that the attack wing's real target would be the outpost. Being the primary defense for the installation kind of dictated that he would have to either stop the invading Klingon force there or die trying. Now the Graceful Flyers are hardly a match for two cruisers and a frigate (good ones at that) but the V-30 T2 IS a match for two D-10Gs. The trick for the Romulan commander is to strike only when he can split or maneuver away from the torpedoes of the D-10s. The L-9B has no torpedo weaponry but a lot of beam weapons. I have noticed that a lot of players like to power beam weapons to the absolute minimum and rely on the damage modifiers for range. This bodes well for the Romulan. I have played this scenario numerous times with the final outcomes being mostly split decisions. Now I admit, a lot of the scenarios in the book seem a little unbalanced, but when is a battle ever perfectly even? The White Flame book is one of those things that presents a story enacted through the combat missions of the Klingon flotilla. I have yet to actually play this game without a story line backstopping the reason for the battle(s). I do the same for Battletech as well. Random skirmishes were fun at first, but grew to be tiresome without context (at least for me and the groups I've resided over). I mean each to their own, and I do admit that the writing for The White Flame is a little hokey, but it was still an entertaining book that served as the inspiration for several of my groups. |
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Post by tinker on Oct 4, 2018 15:16:58 GMT -7
I dug out my copy of White Flame and now I remember why I disliked it so much. Two scenarios have a single representative of the Romulans' two best ships (the Nova and the Winged Defender) set up to be taken down by a squadron of Klingon ships. No way would the Romulans leave these ships unprotected in these scenarios. If they made the lone ship one that might actually be found alone - like a research cruiser then it might be more believable.
Yes, the Winged Defender gets two pathetic CS2s on turn 12 (never mind that the escorts described in the SRM were destroyers and/or other cruisers). I don't know how your group played, swede, but in our group I don't remember a single game making it past turn 12. Most games were decided before turn 9 or 10.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 4, 2018 16:15:19 GMT -7
I dug out my copy of White Flame and now I remember why I disliked it so much. Two scenarios have a single representative of the Romulans' two best ships (the Nova and the Winged Defender) set up to be taken down by a squadron of Klingon ships. No way would the Romulans leave these ships unprotected in these scenarios. If they made the lone ship one that might actually be found alone - like a research cruiser then it might be more believable. Yes, the Winged Defender gets two pathetic CS2s on turn 12 (never mind that the escorts described in the SRM were destroyers and/or other cruisers). I don't know how your group played, swede, but in our group I don't remember a single game making it past turn 12. Most games were decided before turn 9 or 10. I've had games last for hours, with a turn count exceeding 25+! The only tinkering with the rules we used was to change the Romulan plasma weapon to a tracked item and have all the sheilds raise at the same time instead of only one or two. We did restrict firing arcs since the ones in the simulator rules were really dumb and include things like tractor beams and Tholian ships. That being said I've also had games in the Jason Robinson computer version last into the same range, and that's usung the rules as written. Sure, games can go pretty short, especially if the players dive straight at each other and do nothing but alpha strikes, but I've never taught new players the game with ships that can do that. A Larson Mk-I is the best way to learn tactics. |
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Post by tinker on Oct 4, 2018 20:49:14 GMT -7
I've had games last for hours, with a turn count exceeding 25+! The only tinkering with the rules we used was to change the Romulan plasma weapon to a tracked item and have all the sheilds raise at the same time instead of only one or two. We did restrict firing arcs since the ones in the simulator rules were really dumb and include things like tractor beams and Tholian ships. The only change we made was to treat plasma weapons like torpedoes when it comes to evading them. Otherwise, we ran the rules stock. We quickly found tactics to counter the alpha strike. Most of our games were based on maneuver with one shield powered and a few points to power weapons (especially torpedoes) and the rest poured into movement. The slower ship would usually lose. |
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Post by walrusguy on Oct 17, 2018 6:22:24 GMT -7
Not to revise a quiet thread that's managed to go on to it's own life...but a quick update from earlier in this conversation.
I had mentioned that one of my two 2nd Edition Construction Manual pdf's seemed to have some issues with the Klingon torpedoes. In looking deeper at the manual - there are some GLARING errors and issues! SOOOOOO! If you have this particular version (you'll know because the Klingon tandem engines are listed on a single page - rather than the far more expansive - and correct - dual page version) you may want to skip using that version.
Just wanted everyone to know.
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Post by SITZKRIEG! on Oct 17, 2018 7:44:18 GMT -7
I'm a little late to the party but figured I'd add my two cents. The FASA timeline IMO is its own thing as a snapshot of the Star Trek extended/licensed universe in the 1980's. Things have been invalidated since (such as Klingons having photon torpedoes in the NX era as well as the NX era itself) and I'm not sure it's worth changing things to match more recent canon. YMMV. I personally don't add torpedoes to earlier vessels on my own blog stat sheets but I don't have a problem with others doings so within reason. Firstly, the WDF values in the Klingon Recognition manual are very undervalued compared with the construction manual with many klingon ships having 1/3 less than they "should" assuming you use the construction manual as the "correct" value. Secondly, if someone does add torpedoes, I'd personally prefer if they only added KP-1 and 2. The KP-3 is the first one that "officially" shows up iirc in the manual (on the D-7M around 2/12) and it makes sense to add less powerful ones if you're saying they came before it. I fully realize that the nomeclature numbering doesn't necessarily correspond 100% to introduction but it seems to me like a reasonable compromise as long as the WDF values are all normalized to construction manual levels for all factions.
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Post by tinker on Oct 19, 2018 4:59:44 GMT -7
I agree with that timeline. the older ships should have the KP-1 and KP-2 if you add them. I prefer to add a KP-2 to the D7 because we have seen it fire torpedoes in TOS.
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