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Post by cowboy40 on Jan 19, 2019 15:41:29 GMT -7
There is a very unique ship that is held by the Federation in her inventory. During the Romulan War, the Star Fleet was able to capture what would have been the pride of the Romulan Star Navy. It was nearing completion at the end of the Romulan War, but a daring mission from Star Fleet Intel was able to capture the monster and they brought her back to the Federation where she was studied.
And then placed into storage, but some 100 years later the Federation had found herself in another war, and took this giant heavy hull and worked out ways to fit her with modern Federation equipment and produced the USS Juggernaut.
I wonder if the Star Fleet would have used such an old hull in the Four Years War?
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Post by thescreamingswede on Jan 19, 2019 23:29:54 GMT -7
Operation: Golden Pheasant, from "Old Soldiers Never Die".
If memory serves, they Federation hid the origins of the Juggernaut from the general public, citing that the vessel was built by the Federation but not completed before the war would end, so they moved it to a more secure location, near Andor I believe.
There is also no mention of them trying to reconfigure the hull with Federation technology for the Four Years War, but I highly doubt that they would have even tried in the first place. The design is 100 years old, meaning that the hull technology used would have been like using an old oak hull in WWII for a major warship. While the ship was big and it could be possible to retrofit with newer technology, it would have been much more difficult to rebuild the spaceframe and hull to accept modern weaponry and equipment.
Regardless of its age, the ship itself would have been nothing more than an oddity, a curious knickknack in orbit around Memory Alpha that would have faded into obscurity after 100 years.
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Post by krebizfan on Jan 20, 2019 0:52:59 GMT -7
The Orions were adding warp engines in accordance with the design work that the Federation had been doing. I expect that it was mostly a design study for the Federation, a chance to give aspiring designers something to do before moving them to real ships. Yes, Brass Idol goes all the way to contemplating mass production with modern systems but nothing was actually done except more plans.
Putting it in service seems unlikely. The best that it can be is a slow (because of all that mass) vessel with the firepower and shields of a cruiser. Not a game changer and the crew demands are excessive plus it would take a long time actually make sure the ship works correctly. Unless a special mission requires oodles of superstructure, it has no use.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jan 20, 2019 1:54:15 GMT -7
What is the source for all of this?
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Post by cowboy40 on Jan 20, 2019 2:27:15 GMT -7
It is the FASA RPG supplements "Old Soldiers Never Die" and the "The Romulan War". I tell you it was a fun adventure to play out all those years ago, and for some reason i have always liked that flying brick of a "Golden Pheasant".
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Post by krebizfan on Jan 20, 2019 9:38:21 GMT -7
Old Soldiers Never Die would make more sense if the ship was an unfinished Federation Battleship from the Romulan War. Besides the sheer dubiousness of the largest most capable Romulan ship being captured at a time when nothing gets captured, one would expect the Romulans to have built their own ships based on revisions to the design. Romulans didn't.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jan 23, 2019 17:36:49 GMT -7
Ok, I know nothing about this damn ship and it's bugging me now!
Would it be possible for someone to lay out what there is to know about it? Are there stats? Images? Just fluff? As of right now all I know is that it's a ship that may have been stolen from the Romulans. This is driving me nuts.
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Post by cowboy40 on Jan 23, 2019 18:00:07 GMT -7
Ok, I know nothing about this damn ship and it's bugging me now! Would it be possible for someone to lay out what there is to know about it? Are there stats? Images? Just fluff? As of right now all I know is that it's a ship that may have been stolen from the Romulans. This is driving me nuts. Does this help?  |
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Post by cowboy40 on Aug 21, 2019 22:12:33 GMT -7
I would love turning this thing lose as a commerce raider. Imagine this thing running lose on the convoy routes!!! Though due to her speed she would probably have to have a good escort. Imagine an Orion attack force of this beast and two Wanderer class vessels working in unison with each other...
The major powers would have to put a lot of resources in hunting down this raiding force and have to employ some very heavy vessels in hunting them, and they would have to provide heavy escort on the routes being hit!!
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Post by tosfan1956 on Aug 22, 2019 7:09:43 GMT -7
I agree this thing is a beast for size and wt but, looking at the weaponry, this thing would be hard pressed against TOS era Federation, Klingon or Romulan ships, namely the Constitution, D-7, or V-8. Maybe back in the day it was a scary monster, but the refit parts would need to be something much better than what the Orion’s are showing here!
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Post by krebizfan on Aug 22, 2019 10:45:54 GMT -7
Or it could be sold off to one of the smaller states like in the Triangle. A big defensive ship that would require a very large attacking fleet to tackle could provide considerable value. Crew demands may be excessive but off the shelf components make repairing damage easy.
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Post by cowboy40 on Aug 22, 2019 11:07:36 GMT -7
The Orions planned to use her in a Pirate role. can you imagine a couple of cutters or escorts having to face off with this beast. They probably wanted her for the intimidation factor she would present to a civilian registered vessel and a small group of escorts or even destroyers...
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Post by krebizfan on Aug 22, 2019 12:50:38 GMT -7
Seizing ships seems difficult when it is slower than many of the freighters being chased. Find convoy, convoy scatters, Juggernaut fails to catch enough to pay for operations. As a centerpiece for a raid on a fixed target, it would be useful. After the attack, if successful, retire and sell off the ships.
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Post by brickwall on Aug 22, 2019 13:48:15 GMT -7
The Orions planned to use her in a Pirate role. can you imagine a couple of cutters or escorts having to face off with this beast. They probably wanted her for the intimidation factor she would present to a civilian registered vessel and a small group of escorts or even destroyers... Hmmm.....
I was thinking that since the Orions are also well known for copying ship designs, they might have attempted to copy this design and reproduce it. Sell said copies off to the highest bidders and such. Seems much easier to do that to try spacejacking it whole.
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Post by cowboy40 on Aug 22, 2019 14:07:43 GMT -7
The Orions planned to use her in a Pirate role. can you imagine a couple of cutters or escorts having to face off with this beast. They probably wanted her for the intimidation factor she would present to a civilian registered vessel and a small group of escorts or even destroyers... Hmmm..... I was thinking that since the Orions are also well known for copying ship designs, they might have attempted to copy this design and reproduce it. Sell said copies off to the highest bidders and such. Seems much easier to do that to try spacejacking it whole.
Yes, the Orions are known for copying Klingon D-4 and D-7 cruisers. These vessels are between around 80,000 mt to 135,000 mt. The beast here is around 245,000 mt. I am not sure if the Orions would have a shipyard that could build a craft of this size. I say this because i don't see any evidence in FASA that they have built any of their own designs to that weight. The best the Orions have designed is the Wanderer class ships and these vessels have a mass of just over 48,000 mt. I just don't see evidence of them being able to build a ship the size of the "Golden Pheasant"...Also those copies of borrowed designs seem to be inferior to those built by the respective powers... |
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 23, 2019 3:49:17 GMT -7
Regarding those Juggernaut stats, two things. The beam weapons stats are actually for the OD-4 weapon, not the OD-5. Plus, I know if you use the original FASA arcs, those beam weapon arcs can fire forward (all four beams can fire down the centre line of hexes away from the number two shield, right?), but with our groups revised weapons arcs, it couldn't!  |
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Post by tinker on Aug 23, 2019 4:59:09 GMT -7
I agree this thing is a beast for size and wt but, looking at the weaponry, this thing would be hard pressed against TOS era Federation, Klingon or Romulan ships, namely the Constitution, D-7, or V-8. Maybe back in the day it was a scary monster, but the refit parts would need to be something much better than what the Orion’s are showing here! As it should. This is an ancient warship that has been refitted with new systems. It is a crude and simple design compared the Constitution or D-7. I was thinking that since the Orions are also well known for copying ship designs, they might have attempted to copy this design and reproduce it. Sell said copies off to the highest bidders and such. Seems much easier to do that to try spacejacking it whole. If that were the case, wouldn't they steal plans for more modern ships? The Orions were incapable of producing larger ships as they do not have access to a military level shipyard. That is why they have blockade runners as their primary "warships". Stealing this ship and refitting it gives the Orions a ship that actually take a little punishment even though it cannot dish out much more than their smaller ships. |
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Post by brickwall on Aug 23, 2019 19:29:31 GMT -7
I agree this thing is a beast for size and wt but, looking at the weaponry, this thing would be hard pressed against TOS era Federation, Klingon or Romulan ships, namely the Constitution, D-7, or V-8. Maybe back in the day it was a scary monster, but the refit parts would need to be something much better than what the Orion’s are showing here! As it should. This is an ancient warship that has been refitted with new systems. It is a crude and simple design compared the Constitution or D-7. I was thinking that since the Orions are also well known for copying ship designs, they might have attempted to copy this design and reproduce it. Sell said copies off to the highest bidders and such. Seems much easier to do that to try spacejacking it whole. If that were the case, wouldn't they steal plans for more modern ships?
The Orions were incapable of producing larger ships as they do not have access to a military level shipyard. That is why they have blockade runners as their primary "warships". Stealing this ship and refitting it gives the Orions a ship that actually take a little punishment even though it cannot dish out much more than their smaller ships. Oooooooh! You've given me a possible RPG idea! Or, perhaps, a scenario idea for the game. Opinions and improvements welcome!
One or more Orion corporations/cartels get the idea to finally build a military level shipyard. While they are in the middle of making it, a Federation (or Klingon) task force arrives to blow it to atoms. One player is the Orions (or two to play separate Orion corps./cartels), one or two play the Feds or Klingons.
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Post by tinker on Aug 24, 2019 5:58:25 GMT -7
I'd go with the Feds. The Klinks would just send a task force to blow the shipyards out of orbit - no real in depth thinking there. The Feds would have to come up with a more "politically correct" (i.e. devious) way to neutralize the project without the blame coming back on them. Also, knowing that none of the major powers would allow the Orions to build such a facility, part of the scenario could be finding it! On the Orion side, the players would have to come up with a way to build such a shipyard in complete secrecy!
Food for thought.
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Post by brickwall on Aug 24, 2019 15:27:29 GMT -7
I'd go with the Feds. The Klinks would just send a task force to blow the shipyards out of orbit - no real in depth thinking there. The Feds would have to come up with a more "politically correct" (i.e. devious) way to neutralize the project without the blame coming back on them. Also, knowing that none of the major powers would allow the Orions to build such a facility, part of the scenario could be finding it! On the Orion side, the players would have to come up with a way to build such a shipyard in complete secrecy! Food for thought. Oh man, I like this! I like this VERY much!
Perhaps the Orions would disguise this as, say, four smaller shipyards linked together cranking out ships like Henry Ford's old-style assembly line stuff. But on the sly, each shipyard actually makes one-quarter of a huge ship class. It is all put together in a hidden part of that solar system. Maybe in an asteroid belt or Kuiper belt or even a nebula.
If a nebula, perhaps name the class after it -- the Nebula-class battlecruiser.
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Post by krebizfan on Aug 29, 2019 21:58:46 GMT -7
The Orion book indicates that the Orions can and do build larger ships but aren't good at it.
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Post by tinker on Aug 31, 2019 5:52:34 GMT -7
The Orion book indicates that the Orions can and do build larger ships but aren't good at it. Any mention as to why? |
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Post by krebizfan on Aug 31, 2019 21:07:46 GMT -7
Page 75 of the Orion book is an essay devoted to the concepts of Orion design. It also mentions 3 kilometer colonial transports. How these guidelines would have been implemented in FASA's Orion Ship Recognition Book is not known to me. One representative sentence follows:
The engineering guidelines that make a Class II vessel fast, rakish, and murderous make a Class VII slow, peevish, and spidery.
There is a PDF Orion ship recognition book which has 3 combat ships of Orion design Class VII or larger.
Battlenaught (Class VIII): Slow, weakly shielded with lots of close range weapons but not the power to arm them and move. "... proven itself nearly as useless."
Majestic (Class VIII): A nice design but the commentary focuses a lot on luxury accommodations. No warp speed values given.
Corporation (Class IX): Exploration and commerce. A bit weak and slow but not by that much. Again, palatial cabins and meeting rooms instead of combat facilities.
I believe one of the problems faced by the Orions with larger ships is that only limited numbers are built and those that are built don't see combat so there isn't the same pressure to improve the designs that happens with smaller ships.
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Post by starcruiser on Sept 1, 2019 7:48:24 GMT -7
Real pirates generally don't like large ships, save for carrying their loot.
For every "Queen Anne's Revenge" or "Adventure Galley" there are dozens of sloops, schooners, cutters and other small craft.
I would suspect that the Orions would be pretty much of the same mind...
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bernard Guignard
Lieutenant
Trek Canon!!! I NO believe in TreK Canon!!!.
Posts: 137
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Post by bernard Guignard on Sept 1, 2019 14:48:29 GMT -7
Would be interesting to see the Juggernaut drawn up in 3d
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