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Post by Brad R. Torgersen on Jul 15, 2012 21:12:08 GMT -7
Prior to April, it had been about 18 years since I'd done any actual paper, pencile & dice RPG playing. Larry Correia invited me to be part of a new L5R campaign he's running, and I must say, not only is Larry a fantastic GM (he's a NYT bestseller, go figure) but the gaming universe of Rokugan is fascinating. I always was a fan of feudal Japan, as well as the pre-industrial Orient in general. L5R presents things cogently and beautifully, and the central game book itself is gorgeous. Cost me a pretty penny, but I really have never seen an RPG book with better production values. It's lovely.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Jul 15, 2012 22:07:02 GMT -7
I played the L5R card game for years. I have played the 1E L5R roleplaying game a few times. I never played the 3E D&D Oriental Adventures L5R game. I dislike D&D. What system are you playing? I am a Crane Clan player in the card game. And have always played Crane in the RPG. What kind of campaign are you playing? Sounds like tons of fun. I am crazy jealous. I wish I could join the group
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Post by captmorgan on Aug 8, 2012 16:32:22 GMT -7
I am a gamemaster for an active 4th Edition L5R role playing game, and it's had it's up's and downs. The basic problem is the culture, which is about as foreign to Western thinking as any you'll ever find, and I've had players commit seppuku to save their family honor for things that we, in the West, would find trivial by comparison. This is because Manners and Order over Chaos are everything to this culture. Definitely not a game for beginners to roleplaying.
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Post by Gorn on Aug 8, 2012 17:03:18 GMT -7
My group has been doing Hero Quest for a few years now - although it quickly evolved to a much more sophisticated game than HQ.
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Post by captmorgan on Aug 8, 2012 17:34:26 GMT -7
Let me give you an anecdotal example.
Not long ago, I had a group of samurai PCs go into a very horrific tomb (Tomb of Iuchiban). Anyway, one of the PCs was a Crane Duelist who possessed a sword known as a Kakita Blade. This is a very treasured weapon, a katana made specifically for dueling. It is a badge of distinction to be in possession of such a fine blade.
Anyway, during the foray into the Tomb, the Duelist found himself locked into a room. There was no way out. It didn't lead anywhere. There was no specific trap. After several hours of being in there, he decided to try to force his way out by using his Kakita Blade to pry open the door. "Snap!" The blade, as expected, breaks.
Anyway, he's let out, and after the adventure, they all return to the Crane court, where it just so happened that was presided over by the Duelist's lord. After regaling the court their adventures (for added Glory, which is represented in the game), the PC in question then says to his lord, "I need a new Kakita Blade."
Now, this is very sudden and very uncouth for him to just do. But I tried to give him a way out by having the lord ask him how did it break.
It's important to understand that in L5R, sincerity is everything. If you are sincere, it's regarded as truth, and very few are going to challenge you (especially if you happen to be a duelist).
He proudly said, "I broke it by trying to pry open a door."
Now, he could've said, "An ogre broke it with his mighty tetsubo, but I was able to slit his throat with the remainder of this excellent weapon!" And that would've been great! The PC forgot that honesty, while a virtue, isn't always the best policy in Rokugan.
His lord had no choice but to cast the PC out of the Clan, making him a ronin. He got no sword, nothing.
The best way to handle this would've been to go to his lord or retainer in private, out of court, telling him the cock-and-bull story about how an ogre wrecked his blade in battle. Even if he failed his Etiquette roll, he would not have been cast out of the clan because he did what he could to save face for his family and the clan, which is part of what a samurai is to do.
This can be very difficult for a westerner to grasp if he doesn't study it.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Aug 8, 2012 19:38:23 GMT -7
Eh, I disagree somewhat with your anecdote. I don't think that a CYA sort of attitude is really "the way of things" in Rokugan. The duelist really stepped out of character when he tried to use a Kakita blade to pry open a door. To a Crane Clan duelist a Kakita Blade would be a precious artifact. The character would probably die to protect the blade. If he did break it somehow rather than lie to protect his own stupid ass he should beg his lord to allow him to commit seppuku to remove the dishonor that he brought to himself by allowing such a precious thing to be destroyed.
Depending on the circumstances that led to the destruction of the blade the lord may allow him to reclaim his honor by seppuku, or may banish him in dishonor.
For example: Duelist, "My lord, the Kakita blade I was alowed to weild was broken. Here are the peices. It was destroyed by an oni in battle. I was able to slay the beast but still I have failed my clan. I request seppuku to remove the stain of honor from myself and my family."
Lord, "You have my blessing to commit seppuku, to remove the stain of dishonor."
Duelist, "My lord, the Kakita blade I was alowed to weild was broken. Here are the peices. It was destroyed when I used it as a common tool to try to pry open a door."
The lord,'s eyes bulge with disbelief and his face purples with rage. Only years of courtly training allow him to keep his voice below a shout. Still, his voice seeths with the constrained emotions. "Seppuku!? How dare you even ask that? No, I think not. I strip you of your family name and titles. You will wander nameless and honorless having to earn your way as a common mercenary. Your sons will be pulled from the Kakita Duelist Academy and will be banished as ronin as well. If I didn't relish the idea of you living with your dishonor I would kill you myself. Guards, get this filthy ronin out of my sight!."
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Post by Meteo Ascension on Aug 8, 2012 23:55:47 GMT -7
...I played through a medieval Japan Scenario in an RPG, of a system some PCer and Communist made up.
We went as Shinobi, and kicked ass, through Realism.
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Post by Gorn on Aug 9, 2012 11:46:20 GMT -7
Yes, absolutely he stepped out of character. The idea of using the blade on the door would simply not even occur to him; it is that taboo and alien.
He would probably sit in seiza and wait until the point he was weakened enough by lack of water that he would then commit seppuku right there with no second.
The only thing I would find interesting would be how he would face the dilemma that his sword would then be taken by the enemy.
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Post by captmorgan on Aug 15, 2012 13:58:37 GMT -7
Eh, I disagree somewhat with your anecdote. I don't think that a CYA sort of attitude is really "the way of things" in Rokugan. The duelist really stepped out of character when he tried to use a Kakita blade to pry open a door. To a Crane Clan duelist a Kakita Blade would be a precious artifact. The character would probably die to protect the blade. If he did break it somehow rather than lie to protect his own stupid ass he should beg his lord to allow him to commit seppuku to remove the dishonor that he brought to himself by allowing such a precious thing to be destroyed. Depending on the circumstances that led to the destruction of the blade the lord may allow him to reclaim his honor by seppuku, or may banish him in dishonor. For example: Duelist, "My lord, the Kakita blade I was alowed to weild was broken. Here are the peices. It was destroyed by an oni in battle. I was able to slay the beast but still I have failed my clan. I request seppuku to remove the stain of honor from myself and my family." Lord, "You have my blessing to commit seppuku, to remove the stain of dishonor." Duelist, "My lord, the Kakita blade I was alowed to weild was broken. Here are the peices. It was destroyed when I used it as a common tool to try to pry open a door." The lord,'s eyes bulge with disbelief and his face purples with rage. Only years of courtly training allow him to keep his voice below a shout. Still, his voice seeths with the constrained emotions. "Seppuku!? How dare you even ask that? No, I think not. I strip you of your family name and titles. You will wander nameless and honorless having to earn your way as a common mercenary. Your sons will be pulled from the Kakita Duelist Academy and will be banished as ronin as well. If I didn't relish the idea of you living with your dishonor I would kill you myself. Guards, get this filthy ronin out of my sight!." Understand, though, that there is no particular right way to go about this game. And what I was trying to demonstrate to my players is how things work. Further, swords do break all the time. They just do, especially in combat. If every samurai had to commit seppuku if their sword was broken in the line of duty, there wouldn't be very many samurai. So the point of making him ronin was to make him live with his shame. If he had come to his lord in private, explained the situation in a sincere manner in just such a way as to promote his own courage and capability (even if he's lying - yes, he might lose some Honor for that, even though he was already less than 2 ranks at the time), he would've gotten a new sword. Maybe not a Kakita blade, but a new sword nonetheless.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Aug 15, 2012 22:04:52 GMT -7
Well, my example was simplified quite a bit simply because I didn't want to write a book. Probably a samurai requesting seppuku over a broken sword, even a Kakita blade, is a bit extreme. If the samurai did request seppuku the lord would probably not grant the request. Rather, he would probably reassure the samurai that these things do happen and that his honor is intact.
I guess my real problem with your story was that the way you presented it, it seemed to suggest that all samurai would rather lie to save face than take responsibility for their actions. I don't think that this is the case. Maybe Scorpion Clan samurai would feel that way, but not most other clans.
I think that in the scenario you presented you failed your player. When he said he was going to try to pry open a door with a Kakita blade it was your job to fill in all the social training the character has that the player doesn't. Impress on him how precious the blade is to him and to his family and detail the likely consequences he will face for breaking the sword. In the end it is his decision what he does, but if you have done your job right only and idiot would have broken the sword in the door.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Aug 15, 2012 22:40:21 GMT -7
Actually, I found the annecdote to be a great reminder that in any roleplay scenario, be it medival, fantasy, or sci-fi, the problem comes from a players lack of knowledge of the culture/mind set of a portrayed character. While the sound of playing a samurai is appealing, it would be very difficult to play the character properly if you don't know the culture and history of the samurai. Even misconceptions of the culture can lead to making a serious fauxpas. It is not only a GM's responsibility. The player should, if there is a real intrest, try to understand the character and his/her motivations as well.
I have had the same problem with Star Trek. I call it "19th century thinking/23rd century technology". Now I know that this is the 20th century, but for some reason players still seem to get into this "old west" mentality as soon as you put a phaser in thier hand. Roleplaying a Starfleet officer (and to a greater extent, a Federation citizen who may not necessariliy be human) is probably the most difficult to play, in all reality. Playing the human is easy, but playing the human who has grown up in a different time, where peaceful coexistance with other cultures is the norm, not the exception, is as alien to some people as the actual aliens are. We live in an era where mistrust of other cultures leads to misconceptions and incorrect assumptions. This can translate into the games, thus mistakes can occur.
I've never played the aforementioned game, but I have played a fair deal of RPG beyond Star Trek, and I have always tried to "get into character" by understanding the background of the characters culture. It's a personal thing, but I do try to empart that on any of my players when I gamesmaster.
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