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Post by brickwall on Apr 9, 2021 17:35:35 GMT -7
Fellow FASA Fans,
I came by this article on Star Trek's official website via YouTube commenter "The Quartering". The article itself got an avalanche of backlashes on Twitter.
It deals with a Trek fan and cosplayer who truly believes Gene Roddenberry's utopian future will become reality through "global Socialism". 
Now there have been discussions here and elsewhere on whether this sci-fi future is Socialist or Fascist or post-scarcity or whatnot. But seeing Star Trek's official website seem to smile on what this fan promotes is really pumping up the controversy, wouldn't you think?
So what do you all think on this? Should the Trek site have left such a hot topic alone as it would split the fandom further apart than it is now in the wake of DISCOVERY and PICARD?
Please let us know your comments and thank you in advance.
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Post by brickwall on Apr 13, 2021 17:16:24 GMT -7
The controversy over this article on the official STAR TREK site is getting legs on YouTube and beyond. Evidence is this post from the British commentator "HeelVsBabyface".
NOTE: The gentleman does use profanity from time to time, so please keep this in mind when watching this.
Please let us know your comments and thank you in advance.  |
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Post by tosfan1956 on Apr 14, 2021 5:26:14 GMT -7
While I'm not as well educated as a lot of people on here, but I've learned a thing or two in my years. As The Quartering noted, this is a fake society. It's all science fiction. And, what Mr. Communist and others seem to fail to notice is that all of these shows are geared around a military organization called Star Fleet and portray life on a starship. Yes, you get glimpses of life outside here and there but not much. Paris was recruited from a military prison for breaking Star Fleet regulations, if I remember correctly. And, as was pointed out, Picard's family own a vineyard. I'd say they were not exactly paupers and not the average citizen. On that subject, I think Starship Troopers has a more realistic aspect of military service for citizenship. As for not using money in the future, they use credits. Same thing, different flavor. We are trying to do away with cash even now with checks, credit cards with chips and they are trying to develop a chip to imbed in your skin to cover all that. Combine all the money on the planet and what would you call it? Let's call them credits!! Also, I think history has shown that no form of government lasts forever. Communism collapses under it's own weight. Capitalism folds like a house of cards eventually. Democracy works until the population and government get so big they lose sight of the basics. Fascism, Totalitarianism, you name it, they have all only gone so far and then cracked and broken down leaving a vacuum for some other form to step in. And every future government in science fiction, even the United Federation of Planets, shows signs of decay the longer the stories play out. As for Rodenberry's idea of a Utopian Society where there is no strife... man thrives on strife. We seem built for competition. In games as in real life, someone wins, someone loses. We can't all be winners but we are not all losers either.
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Post by SITZKRIEG! on Apr 14, 2021 11:10:40 GMT -7
Speaking as someone who was born behind the Iron Curtain and grew up hearing my family's first hand experiences under both real Nazis (not the current day accusatory kind for just disagreeing with twitter) and Communists, this guy can go phaser himself (on stun of course!). My family fled the bread lines, secret police, and troops in the streets that invariably accompany the ideology. Delicate idealists like himself are second in line for purging (right after the people who were smart/brave enough to oppose the ideology) once the strongmen/thugs take over their precious revolution. Communism only theoretically works on paper because in the real world it's actually run by people and people are flawed.
Also, it's not just "Trek Fan Pushes Communism" when they post a glowing propaganda piece like that on the website; it's startrek.com pushing it as well. In the fake communist uptopia they're selling, multibillion dollar entertainment companies don't exist, Paramount.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 14:21:03 GMT -7
The dude is just not terribly bright. I'm sure he thinks communism is fun, but communists states always have barriers to exit. That speaks volumes about the entire concept. Star Trek's moneyless Utopia is not Communism, it's a post-scarcity meritocracy. Sisko says its paradise (and he's not happy about it). No secret police No bread lines No apparent repression of freedoms No zampolit on the enterprise No beloved dictator's picture on every bulkhead No communal farms And.. a chapel with religious symbols...
People have pretty much whatever they want and can travel freely. That's a long way from what those poor Soviets had. |
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Post by tosfan1956 on Apr 14, 2021 15:42:28 GMT -7
I just watched "HeelVsBabyface". I couldn't agree more. And I will probably be laughing for the rest of the evening. Champagne Socialist!! Ha! I love it!
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Post by cowboy40 on Apr 14, 2021 19:02:00 GMT -7
In the reality of Star Trek universe, you still have capitalists, illness, war, and the like. It is not utopia...it still has its problems. It still has its freedoms, and it still has its politics...differing points of view....not communists at all....just an advance in some areas and so on...!!!
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Post by starcruiser on Apr 15, 2021 18:31:47 GMT -7
The key concept that Ironnerd brought up is "post-scarcity meritocracy". People don't have to struggle for food, shelter, medical care etc... People rise to fill positions that they are (generally) capable of doing and I would suspect that is due to a far better education system that actually analyses people just enough to understand what they can excel at.
There are political hacks, here and there, along with the occasional troublemakers but mostly, it's a far better world than ours.
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Post by SITZKRIEG! on Apr 16, 2021 12:57:18 GMT -7
I just watched "HeelVsBabyface". I couldn't agree more. And I will probably be laughing for the rest of the evening. Champagne Socialist!! Ha! I love it!
Yeah, that's been making the rounds for a few months but it's a good one. More recently I heard a new one... Limousine Leftists.
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Post by cowboy40 on Apr 18, 2021 5:55:43 GMT -7
The key concept that Ironnerd brought up is "post-scarcity meritocracy". People don't have to struggle for food, shelter, medical care etc... People rise to fill positions that they are (generally) capable of doing and I would suspect that is due to a far better education system that actually analyses people just enough to understand what they can excel at. There are political hacks, here and there, along with the occasional troublemakers but mostly, it's a far better world than ours. There are actually cases of the "Peterson Principle" still comes into play....There are those in the Star Trek universe that have risen to their own level of incompetence; and yes Murphy still does show up a bit. |
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Post by kaisernathan1701 on Apr 18, 2021 18:21:59 GMT -7
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Post by starcruiser on Apr 18, 2021 20:34:56 GMT -7
Well, I don't think it really started as a lie to trick people.
It's biggest problem has always been that humans are inherently fallible. Anyone that gets into a position of power in a Communist state tends to be very quickly corrupted by the power (and yes, wealth "power=wealth" and vice versa).
The basic problem is that the IDEA of Communism isn't bad in itself, it's that it just doesn't WORK with people. We can't handle that level of sharing and commitment to everyone else. There's a bit of selfishness in every normal human being. If you think about it, Communism isn't that far off of what simple tribal cultures do. They share their limited resources among the tribe, protect the young and the old and work together (i.e. in a communal sense). This works just fine at that scale and with a group of people functioning as an extended family. It just doesn't work well on a large scale...
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Post by krebizfan on Apr 18, 2021 22:17:13 GMT -7
Trades will publish every press release that comes in. Websites would publish some snippet every time someone mentions being influenced by the website topic. At least, this time won't have as many columns as greeted Treknomics.
Marxist societies seem likely to be static since there is no pressure to push out new concepts which might alter things. Maintenance might take a back seat to benefits which would have long term negative impacts.
Planned Communist societies would depend on how good the planners are and, unfortunately, when central planning makes a mistake, it tends to be a doozy.
I have found it a bit amusing that a number of economic systems that were proposed predicated their assumptions on humanity being able to figure out the best long term strategies and willing to sacrifice what is necessary to achieve that. Compare the New Soviet Man with its libertarian counterpart. It is difficult to imagine a government or economy that would not do well if packed with such paragons.
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Post by tinker on Apr 21, 2021 6:41:54 GMT -7
The mass morality of the Star Trek universe does not exist in the real world (this one at least). This is the primary reason socialism fails. When people discover that there is no difference whether they work hard or not at all, they will eventually choose to not work at all. That is why we have a country like Venezuela: It sits on the largest oil reserves in the western hemisphere, but is outproduced by places like...South Dakota.
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Post by steven on Mar 28, 2022 12:08:17 GMT -7
I'm not even sure the argument of a pseudo-socialist post-scarcity economy where humanity is happy just making humanity even better even exists in the TOS setting. The miners in Mudd's Women weren't out there all alone because they were bored. I doubt the 8,000 people Kodos the Executioner murdered to save the other 4,000 were happy about their sacrifice. Carol Marcus's pitch to the Federation for funding specifically mentioned overcrowding and food supply being issues.
The message of TOS seems to be one where "we are still a savage race, but we're trying to be better." By the time Roddenberry got around to coming up with TNG, the message had shifted to "we made it, but don't look under the hood to see how it works. Just accept that it does."
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Post by JAFisher44 on Mar 28, 2022 15:31:47 GMT -7
There are a number of "communist" regimes that people often hold up as examples of why communism is bad. Intentionally or not, what they fail to recognize is that these are not communist nations. They are fascist totalitarian states that use a veneer of communism to obscure what they are doing. Honestly I don't know if a true communist society could work or not. There has never been a true large scale communist society to study. I do know that capitalism is doomed to failure. The longer capitalism operates the more wealth it pumps to the few at the top until it collapses, usually violently, and everything is redistributed to start anew.
It is telling to see Venezuela used as an example. When I see someone bring it up I know that they are just regurgitating pro-capitalist propaganda. No one who knows what they are talking about will use Venezuela as an example of the failure of communism. Venezuela is a failed capitalist society that transitioned to a corrupt, totalitarian, pseudo-communist government in desperation when it's capitalist economy collapsed.
I find it disheartening when people assume that without the threat of death everyone would just stop working and contributing to society. I know that I would not. In fact I feel that I am far less productive that I could be because I am stuck trying to just stay alive instead of having the freedom to improve myself and my ability to contribute to society.
I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I do know we can do better than we are doing now. I suspect that true communism would be a better option than the capitalism we currently struggle under. That said it is not the only option. Even a hybrid capitalist/socialist society would be a vast improvement over what we have now.
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Post by starcruiser on Mar 28, 2022 16:36:45 GMT -7
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all of the others that have been tried..." ~ Winston Churchill
Some form of regulated (oohhh...that word) Capitalism would probably work just fine with a foundation of Socialism to ensure a fair playing field for everyone. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the basis of what the Star Trek Federation would actually be. It would explain high-education and apparent lack of poverty and suffering within the core worlds. I would doubt that such a system would be universally applied out on "The Frontier" (TM) since many colonies are probably relatively young, poorly populated and may even be 'off the books' on occasion.
For the sake of storytelling - that's the kind of background that would allow a lot of freedom for a writer.
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Post by steven on Mar 28, 2022 16:39:36 GMT -7
I think the problem that comes with the way the post-scarcity socialism thing presented in TNG and beyond comes down to one of two issues:
1) Who does the ugly unwanted jobs like cleaning out backed up sewers scrape gum off the streets or even dig dilithium out of the ground? It's easy for Picard and Sisko to wax eloquent about doing stuff for the betterment of humanity or enjoying everyday at the cafe, but there are still going to be bad and backbreaking jobs and someone is going to need to do them and they aren't likely to be done for the reason Picard wants us to believe.
2) While the basic needs of a person might be met(housing, food, clothing) most people aren't going to wake up in the morning and go do art or become a doctor just to alleviate suffering. If we're being honest about it, most people are lazy and only go to work because they need money, even if it's a job they love. If all their needs are met there is no real incentive to get a job. But if the Federation holds the stick of "he who does not work, does not eat" then we're back to the state using force (or the threat of force) via starvation to compel a person to get off their butt and do something.
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Post by brickwall on Mar 28, 2022 17:18:16 GMT -7
This is a major reason why I - - along with my guys the Kephan Unity - - promote Distributism rather than Capitalism or Socialism. Both tend to centralize ownership of the means of production and distribution rather than de-centralize them. Both tend to be materialistic in their philosophies.
And I suspect Gene Roddenberry and the writers of each Trek series knew nothing at all about Distributism. They didn't know what they didn't know. So they thought there were only two economic and political systems, either Adam Smith's or Karl Marx's. They didn't think there was a "third way" but there is.
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Post by steven on Mar 28, 2022 17:40:19 GMT -7
I suspect that neither Roddenberry nor the writers really gave it much thought at all. They just threw in a reference here, a speech there, some Picard pontification, and didn't really worry about if/how the world outside the hull of the Enterprise functioned.
And truthfully, I can't blame them for not worrying about the deeper economic ramifications of a throwaway line.
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Post by drkanukie on Apr 19, 2022 6:51:11 GMT -7
There is also a concerted twitter campaign at the moment on the lines of "Hmmm you know anyone who is Conservative can't like/understand Star Trek". I see the same old pattern of 'The Message'.
On the utopian side of things Trek doesn't gel either, you have Riker giving people appraisals and beasting them through drills, it's more like the military but with counselling all a bit weird. What are the motivations to join Starfleet, chance to explore the galaxy but you have to sign up for a quasi military organisation at odds with your utopian lifestyle. Backgrounds like the Culture did this better, there the crews were basically having a laugh and did what they pleased so long as it generally furthered their societies aims. They has also farmed out the drudgery to machines which could all be automated in the Star Trek background.
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