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Post by trynda1701 on Jun 26, 2022 8:12:01 GMT -7
In my ongoing attempt to create the Gorn Intelligence Scout, I have a couple of questions about the FASA scenario "Demand of Honor" and walrusguy s' supplement "The Outback". I definitely finally found a copy of the FASA scenario a good few years ago, but currently can't find it!  I believe from what I remember (hopefully correctly) from the scenario that a Gorn Ambassador and a Federation starship were involved, with a conference on the planet of Clanhaven? Does the end of the scenario (no other spoilers) lead to what is called the Clanhaven Accords? Which, in "The Outback", are now expanded into the Frontier Accords, allowing more Federation vessels near the Gorn border at the entry into the Outback region between Gorn and Romulan space? The Outback is implying that this happens because of impending hostilities between the Gorn and the Romulans, with skirmishes already happening in the region, if I'm reading it correctly. My idea for the Gorn Intelligence scout is that the sensor spikes will give it expanded sensor capabilities for resource detection, but will help as well to detect cloaked Romulan vessels more efficiently. I'd like to hear from walrusguy on this about the two Accords. Do they allow for limited military information exchange between the Gorn Alliance and the Federation, which may allow for how Starfleet Intelligence learns about my design. Or is the design just observed in operation in the area? I'd like for this to be commented on by walrusguy. But anyone else, please feel free to chip in.  I look forward to folks thoughts on this matter. |
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Post by captainmojo on Jun 26, 2022 16:11:12 GMT -7
Per the "Background Information" section of Demand of Honor, the Frontier Accord is already in place at the beginning of the scenario:
Progress on the peace conferences, now in their second year, has been slow, to say the least. Gorn culture is aggressive, expansionistic, and keyed to values quite unlike the basic roots of Federation philosophy and thought. Just understanding the Gorn (and getting them to understand the Federation) took quite some time. Problems in translating concepts and ideas have led to several near-breakdowns in the negotiating process.
Still, some solid gains have been made. The Frontier Accord of Stardate 8873.3 restricted buildups of military shipping within the disputed space between the two powers, with all armed vessels of greater than 100,000 tons kept out of the area entirely. A joint commission gradually has been drawing up an agreeable boundary.
There appears to be some resistance within the Gorn government to the decision to settle the dispute between the two powers by negotiation. Though the situation is far from clear, it seems that a political faction, a splinter group, or a military junta apparently has been pressing for the use of force to win concessions. A phrase translated as 'Manifest Destiny' has turned up in many Alliance statements and speeches. Evidently, the notion of a boundary holding back future Gorn expansion is not a popular one, and this has made final settlement of the treaty quite difficult.
Ambassador Shras of Andor, the current head of the Federation negotiating team, is the third Federation ambassador assigned to the Clanhaven talks. His latest reports indicate he is cautiously optimistic, but worried about the possibility of short-term problems. The next few months, experts say, will be crucial in determining the outcome of the conferences. Failure to settle matters diplomatically could lead to war. It would be a war easily won by superior Federation resources, but costly in lives, in money and material, and in the possible leverage other rivals like the Klingons and the Romulans might gain from Federation preoccupation with the Gorn situation.
The Clanhaven Conference is ongoing during the scenario, and it's up to the players to assure it's not disrupted by the antagonist.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jun 26, 2022 18:16:31 GMT -7
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Post by walrusguy on Jul 5, 2022 11:42:00 GMT -7
The idea I had for the Outback was a Triangle like area with a more direct interaction (militarily) between the Gorn and Romulans. So the writing and back stories are geared more towards that. The Feds would be in the area tentatively, not a major threat to either side, but wouldn't have the influence they have down by the Triangle. The end result was intended to be an area where "Talon & Claw" - a Gorn/Romulan version of the White Flame - could be played. But politically, the Feds would be less of a threat than the Romulans for the Gorn...so the accords would be a useful thing for them to have signed.
Remember as well - there's no official background info beyond the limited stuff from FASA - The Outback is just a fan-publication. So you can change the narrative to fit what you want or need!
Hope that helps!
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 5, 2022 12:25:28 GMT -7
The idea I had for the Outback was a Triangle like area with a more direct interaction (militarily) between the Gorn and Romulans. So the writing and back stories are geared more towards that. The Feds would be in the area tentatively, not a major threat to either side, but wouldn't have the influence they have down by the Triangle. The end result was intended to be an area where "Talon & Claw" - a Gorn/Romulan version of the White Flame - could be played. But politically, the Feds would be less of a threat than the Romulans for the Gorn...so the accords would be a useful thing for them to have signed. Remember as well - there's no official background info beyond the limited stuff from FASA - The Outback is just a fan-publication. So you can change the narrative to fit what you want or need! Hope that helps! Yeah, but I like the concept, AND all the hard work you put into it, so I'd like to accommodate your background. Although I tend to use the "Star Trek Maps" layout in my ship descriptions that I've posted, I of course use the Triangle from FASA, and I can still fit the Outback between the Gorn and Romulan territories in that layout, so I want to keep going down that route.  I've got access to "Demand of Honor" again, so I'll be rereading that and "The Outback", to try and come up with a backstory that isn't too similar to the other three Intelligence scouts. The basic spikes design to hint at either less sophisticated Gorn sensor technology, or a different method for passive scans, suggested by brickwall , is my starting point. I've also mentioned in the Science thread what Gorn ship I plan to modify from your site, walrusguy, and I have ideas for potential stats for it. |
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 20, 2022 9:55:41 GMT -7
OK, the Gorn Intelligence Scout saga continues. So I've read the scenario "Demand of Honor", and have a couple of questions for walrusguy. In the scenario, there are two factions in the Gorn Alliance, sharing power through a Council, each lead by a Autarch. The homeworld Autarch wants negotiations with the Federation to continue, and the Colonial Autarch wants aggressive action towards the Federation. From what I've read about the Gorn in "The Outback" supplement created by walrusguy and others, three clans are mentioned, as shown in this excerpt from the Gorn Hegenomy, on page 7... Military Policy
The Gorn have, by far, the largest military
presence in the Outback. Nearly 200 combat vessels are
at various locations along their boarder, with another 75
actively operate within the Outback itself. These include
cruisers, destroyers escorts and scouts, many of whom
are used as convoy escorts as of late.
Because of the Romulan threat, the Gorn boarder
is no longer dominated by an single clan’s vessels and
personnel. All three clans now operate vessels in the
region. The angular designs favored by the Hss’li are no
longer the majority along the boarder. Vss’lrs’ and Griv’li
Vis designs are now becoming prevalent both along the
established boarder and patrolling the Outback as well.
Bases and boarder outposts are primarily Hss'li design, although a number of clans are known to man the different
bases.So, are there just three clans, as named, with the Alliance changing its' name to Hegenomy after the "Demand of Honor" events, or more than three? I thought the name was the "Gorn Hegenomy" in FASA until I read the scenario, and saw it used "Alliance". In another question open to all, what are peoples thoughts on Gorn females in Gorn society? I'm thinking of a detail involving Gorn females in the sensor spike Scout design. I've got a basic backstory sketched out, but am trying to tie it into both the scenario AND the supplement. I'm thinking if I'm using a slender hull design, how much smaller might female Gorn be, and that perhaps the majority of the Scout crew might actually be female! Are there any sources (books, comics, other Star Trek games supplements from after FASA had the license), that mentions if Gorn females serve in the military? If anyone has info on this facet of Gorn society I'd appreciate whatever they can share. Looking forward to hearing about peoples thoughts or sources. |
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Post by walrusguy on Aug 21, 2022 7:56:21 GMT -7
Yea...um - the Clans...
SOOOO - the Clan idea was a way to take what was essentially a minor(ish) detail and use it to explain the VASTLY different looks for the Gorn ships from the different sources out there. There were designs from Paramount, Interplay/ Taldren, Star Fleet Battles, Dale McKee, Terry Shannon, Jackills, and more recently Star Trek Online, just to name a few. SO back in the day when we wanted to expand the Gorn fleet...we started with the Star Fleet Command video game ships and needed a good reason why they DIDN'T look like FASA ships...and it kinda stuck. We kept running with it and have been using that idea ever since.
In my head...the Gorn clans would be similar to the Klingon "houses"...so that gives a LOT of freedom and diversity. It could explain not only the different looking ships from the multiple sources but the reason why none of the Gorn to date LOOK like a Gorn! (IS IT THAT DAMN HARD TO ADD COMPOUND EYES?!? OK...ok - I'll stop - this isn't the thread for that...)
As for the title of "alliance" - Hegemony is the official Paramount/CBS title - so I'd go with that. If you change out Alliance with Hegemony it doesn't seem to cause any major reading issues. Since the Gorn are now a player in SNW, we may see more development...but hopefully it will be easy to "fold into" FASA material rather than have to ignore or change.
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atolm
Commander
Posts: 857
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Post by atolm on Aug 21, 2022 7:57:50 GMT -7
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 21, 2022 10:15:33 GMT -7
WOW! Just WOW!  Beautiful, elegant, a thin wedge shape like I was trying to imagine (so its still Gorn), but you've just blown away ANY image or modified ship I was going for. The spikes are there, not in the exact places I originally imagined, but I don't care. There are four small and that large one at the front. Perfect! THIS is the Gorn Intelligence Scout! Thank you, atolm . I am humbled, man! EDIT: When I finally get my stats and backstory nailed down you're definitely OK with me using this image with my stats? |
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 21, 2022 10:23:33 GMT -7
Yea...um - the Clans... SOOOO - the Clan idea was a way to take what was essentially a minor(ish) detail and use it to explain the VASTLY different looks for the Gorn ships from the different sources out there. There were designs from Paramount, Interplay/ Taldren, Star Fleet Battles, Dale McKee, Terry Shannon, Jackills, and more recently Star Trek Online, just to name a few. SO back in the day when we wanted to expand the Gorn fleet...we started with the Star Fleet Command video game ships and needed a good reason why they DIDN'T look like FASA ships...and it kinda stuck. We kept running with it and have been using that idea ever since. In my head...the Gorn clans would be similar to the Klingon "houses"...so that gives a LOT of freedom and diversity. It could explain not only the different looking ships from the multiple sources but the reason why none of the Gorn to date LOOK like a Gorn! (IS IT THAT DAMN HARD TO ADD COMPOUND EYES?!? OK...ok - I'll stop - this isn't the thread for that...) As for the title of "alliance" - Hegemony is the official Paramount/CBS title - so I'd go with that. If you change out Alliance with Hegemony it doesn't seem to cause any major reading issues. Since the Gorn are now a player in SNW, we may see more development...but hopefully it will be easy to "fold into" FASA material rather than have to ignore or change. I had a feeling that might be where you were going with the clans, so thanks for the answer. You've mentioned three clan names, so with all the different RPG and computer game and the STO MMORPG designs, do you have a clan list compiled from the various sources to link to the different design styles? I've played "Starfleet Command II", but wasn't sure about clan names that may have been mentioned in it. Its been YEARS since I've played it. As for Hegemony, no problem. I thought it was meant to be that, and if that's the official canon name, I'll go back to that. |
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atolm
Commander
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Post by atolm on Aug 21, 2022 10:31:57 GMT -7
WOW! Just WOW! Beautiful, elegant, a thin wedge shape like I was trying to imagine (so its still Gorn), but you've just blown away ANY image or modified ship I was going for. The spikes are there, not in the exact places I originally imagined, but I don't care. There are four small and that large one at the front. Perfect! THIS is the Gorn Intelligence Scout! Thank you, atolm . I am humbled, man! EDIT: When I finally get my stats and backstory nailed down you're definitely OK with me using this image with my stats? You're welcome. I apologize for not placing the details correctly. And of course you can use it as I designed for you to use. |
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 21, 2022 11:20:05 GMT -7
WOW! Just WOW! Beautiful, elegant, a thin wedge shape like I was trying to imagine (so its still Gorn), but you've just blown away ANY image or modified ship I was going for. The spikes are there, not in the exact places I originally imagined, but I don't care. There are four small and that large one at the front. Perfect! THIS is the Gorn Intelligence Scout! Thank you, atolm . I am humbled, man! EDIT: When I finally get my stats and backstory nailed down you're definitely OK with me using this image with my stats? You're welcome. I apologize for not placing the details correctly. And of course you can use it as I designed for you to use. Hell, don't apologise! I was going to have almost like a star arrangement of between four and six spikes near the aft. But your four small near the front and the main forward one is WAY cooler! EDIT - The only change you could make would be to add two more forward spikes port and starboard to the upper nose, above the lower four, facing forward like the lower four. And I could add that aft fin into the arrangement. So I'll just adjust my backstory idea accordingly! Thanks again, atolm. Superb work as always! |
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atolm
Commander
Posts: 857
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Post by atolm on Aug 21, 2022 12:23:34 GMT -7
WOW! Just WOW! Beautiful, elegant, a thin wedge shape like I was trying to imagine (so its still Gorn), but you've just blown away ANY image or modified ship I was going for. The spikes are there, not in the exact places I originally imagined, but I don't care. There are four small and that large one at the front. Perfect! THIS is the Gorn Intelligence Scout! Thank you, atolm . I am humbled, man! EDIT: When I finally get my stats and backstory nailed down you're definitely OK with me using this image with my stats? You're welcome. I apologize for not placing the details correctly. And of course you can use it as I designed for you to use. This may help:  Direct link: postimg.cc/Dm7gX78n |
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Post by Gorn on Aug 21, 2022 13:31:35 GMT -7
Reptiles have different breeding from mammals. They have no boobs, males carry their hemipenes and gnads inside, the young are precocious, and their selection pressure is alot harder. Unlike the one in a million Starship mammalian Captains like Kirk, the Gorn captain he faced had to survive not being eaten as a hatchling; *possibly* eating his nestmates, and certainly outcompeting them.
He would have had to outcompete significant rivals all through growing and training. Samurai died in training and duels for honor were common; for a civilization making the Samurai "look like anarchy" there might be an extremely high death rate.
The Gorn captain might be one in a BILLION.
While this seems to be the way SNW is going with their "gorn" young, Stupid Hideout is NOT AT ALL a source.
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 21, 2022 14:15:39 GMT -7
You're welcome. I apologize for not placing the details correctly. And of course you can use it as I designed for you to use. This may help: Direct link: postimg.cc/Dm7gX78nBOOM! GOTCHA! That labelling will do nicely! My backstory might now needs a little tweaking, but thanks for that! Again, awesome design, atolm. |
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atolm
Commander
Posts: 857
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Post by atolm on Aug 21, 2022 15:20:39 GMT -7
You're welcome. I apologize for not placing the details correctly. And of course you can use it as I designed for you to use. This may help: Direct link: postimg.cc/Dm7gX78nNP, glad I could help. |
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Post by trynda1701 on Aug 23, 2022 17:27:16 GMT -7
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Post by trynda1701 on Sept 3, 2022 17:09:15 GMT -7
Since my last post, I've been dealing with a stressful matter that's totally distracted me from this.
The last two days especially have been an absolute nightmare, but this evening, despite feeling totally drained physically, I had about an hour and a half working on rejigging my backstory for the Gorn Intelligence Scout.
I've got the stats to where I want them, it's just the backstory needing work. Please bear with me on this, and I'll then create a Gorn ship thread to post it in.
Thank you again for your patience.
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Post by trynda1701 on Sept 5, 2022 14:39:56 GMT -7
The situation that's distracting me isn't sorted, and I'm still working on the Gorn Scout backstory. The new framework is in my head, and I need to get in typed out, but I'm getting worried what I've currently got already is too long and wordy.
I'll get the new version completed as and when I get the situation sorted, leave the text a few days, to see what I can do to clear it up or shorten it to, and then post it.
In the meantime, I'm creating a new Gorn ship thread. No promises when I'll get to actually post the new design!
Again, thanks for your patience.
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Post by trynda1701 on Oct 6, 2022 18:38:27 GMT -7
As I said in the "Science thread" in the "Life, the Universe and Everything" sub-board that started all the talk about dinosaur tail thagoniser spikes, the stats for the Gorn Intelligence Scout with atolm s' amazing design pics are now posted here... ststcsolda.proboards.com/post/21662/thread |
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