The TMP era ships

[cowboy40]

One of the greatest eras for gaming in the simulator is the TMP era, and we have had some good FASA ships and fan ships and modification of official ships that has made this a bloody era.

One of those ships in this era is the Constellation class cruisers. These things are monsters. Heavy armament, heavy shielding, and a hell of a lot of engineering to overcome the problem of having enough power.

There has been many interpretations of the ship and thay all have one thing in common. They are killers. This has been done by most people staying in the construction rules.

It has been pointed out before that the Constellation is a ship out of time in the FASA world. This is true of FASA version and all the fan versions that have been made to keep her true to the rules.

She is almost too powerful for the Kirk era, but in the Next Generation Era, the Constellation is almost impatient. She can blast the hell out of anything the "bad guys" can through at her in the Kirk era, but put her up against TNG she crumbles like a fly.

I know part of this is because the design falls into that missing 75 years between the eras. This makes her hard to play,

I play her, but I was wondering if anyone else does as well, and what do you do with her in your scenarios?

[MajorRacal]

I'm not especially fond of the "lost era" ships that we've seen and the four nacelles on the Constellation just made me roll my eyes with horror and disapproval (I don't like more than two nacelles on any ship). I was never tempted to play with any of the post-TMP/TNG designs because there was so little offered for them to be matched against.

[Green]

I have no problem with Federation ships being super. That is the way it is supposed to be. However, captain's of Federation vessels must behave themselves, unlike their enemies who can do what they want. The Federation is supposed to possess restrained power that only comes into use when absolutely necessary.



Next game try to disable instead of destroy your foes. That is, try to reduce superstructure to 0 or -1 or -2, as per the Graduate rules, if you have not done so already.

[jeffwright]

I've always wondered what direction the refit would have gone had their been no Excelsior/Ingram..no Ambassador...

[Spocksbrain]

May 12, 2014 16:13:30 GMT -7 jeffwright said:

I've always wondered what direction the refit would have gone had their been no Excelsior/Ingram..no Ambassador...

Great question. To my mind, it's like, how many different ways can you stick a saucer, a neck & barrel, two sticks and two(or more)nacelles together? We're talking about the evolution of design here, and at this point, I've seen it all. It's all about personal aesthetics. Whatever "Era" one chooses over another, etc. Since the Constitution Class from TOS was "the" ship, that is the reference point whence(presumably)all other star ships evolved. Certainly from the minds of the artists of the TV series and films. Fans took the various designs even further as "technology" developed.

Personally, I always thought it was odd that they used so many "TMP" era ship design variations throughout TNG. (The ubiquitous Excelsior design comes to mind.) We're talking about almost 80 years(the infamous "Lost Era")of that very same design evolution I mentioned, seemingly going unchanged? (of course it was done because of budget limitations in producing a television series,etc.) But to my mind, in the "actual" lineage of star ship design evolution...who knows? That is a great question. Too bad we'll never know...

[Spocksbrain]

Here are some early concept sketches from the artists of ST3. Clearly, they were thinking "bigger, better, faster" and going with 4 nacelles for show of power.(whether that actually means anything or not, I don't know.) But as in real life, size is often equated with luxury and raw power. No doubt, the design evolution was going in that direction. If nothing else, for dramatic screen presence. Brad has expressed his own thoughts on the matter here in the Federation ships pages, and I tend to agree. How much bigger did they really need to make these ships? The imagination runs wild..




Here is another early sketch/design of a possible Excelsior:

[JAFisher44]

It took me a long time to accept the Excelsior class. When I first saw her in STIII I didn't like her. She was so different from the Enterprise. Her proportions are all wrong. Her saucer is too small. Her secondary hull too large. She is too long. I love the Constitution refit. It is still my favorite Star Trek ship of all time and here is this big bitch trying to out-do her. Faster, stronger, bigger. Add to that the story line puts her at odds with the Enterprise and her crew.

Excelsior never had a chance with me. Not at first. It wasn't until a few years ago that I started to like her. She had been around for so long that my sense of aesthetics had adjusted. (Hell, if I can get used to the Galaxy Class I can get used to almost anything!) I was a lot older and less excitable and I was able to give her a chance. Now I find that I am actually fond of the old girl.

In retrospect I'm glad they went with what they did. Once you accept her aesthetics she really is an elegant design, worthy of her place in Starfleet. All of the other concepts are ugly.

[Spocksbrain]

Personally, I absolutely loved the Excelsior from the moment I saw her in drydock in STIII, in 1984. I was so ready for something different. Constitution refit is of course, an elegant and stylish design, with a unique history. I was fascinated with the Japanese-like take of the Excelsior. It looked FAST. Long, sleek and the way the ribbed main neck/dorsal connected to the huge saucer. With the introduction of the Excelsior,Grissom and the space dock scenes, the filmmakers really opened up the "scope" of Star fleet and gave Star Trek a much more realistic feel. I looked everywhere for actual photos of the design. In those days, they were hard to come by. I think all I could get were a few images of the Space dock scene in the official movie magazine, and Starlog.

[krebizfan]

The long version of the Excelsior looks a lot like the Star Wars Blockade Runner with 4 nacelles tacked on to give a Star Trek look. Ah, deadlines.

The Excelsior problem was the large bulge at the front of engineering section. Shots done in later movies and TNG and later tended to be set higher and from the side so the bulge wasn't quite the focus.

[Spocksbrain]

May 18, 2014 13:18:13 GMT -7 krebizfan said:

The long version of the Excelsior looks a lot like the Star Wars Blockade Runner with 4 nacelles tacked on to give a Star Trek look. Ah, deadlines.

The Excelsior problem was the large bulge at the front of engineering section. Shots done in later movies and TNG and later tended to be set higher and from the side so the bulge wasn't quite the focus.

Now that I think about it, you are exactly right! (On both observations.) That could very well be why the designers added that thin, band "shelf" detail which wraps around the secondary hull; to break up the bulbous visage of the secondary hull. (Enterprise B)

[JAFisher44]

I think I disagree with that assessment. I don't find that I have any problems with the engineering hull. She'll never be a refit Connie, but I think the Excelsior is a beautiful ship now that I have come around. In fact I like her best, as I said before, in her original configuration.

[Spocksbrain]

I certainly like the original configuration as well. I never liked the weird "band/shelf" thingy that they put around her secondary hull for the Enterprise B. I just accepted it as part of the movie.

[JAFisher44]

Personally I wish they would have just used the standard Excelsior layout for the Enterprise B as well. But of course they had to make it "special"

[rarcher]

May 18, 2014 22:47:39 GMT -7 JAFisher44 said:

Personally I wish they would have just used the standard Excelsior layout for the Enterprise B as well. But of course they had to make it "special"

Of course they did she was an 'Enterprise'!

[JAFisher44]

I know you're just being facetious, but really they didn't. The Enterprise A is just a standard refit Connie, the Enterprise C is just a standard Ambassador, the Enterprise D is just a standard Galaxy, the Enterprise E is just a standard Sovereign.

[cowboy40]

the Excelsior was so different then anything we had seen before in Federation vessels. She was big, she was slick to look at and well in the TMP Era she was rare....an experiment.

I like the FASA treatment of the ship. Listing her as a battleship and making her armament match her size.

Out of the three marks listed in the FASA sources. I will never figure out while the Mk III comes across weaker then the Mk II. I think that was a mistake

Back to the TMP era ships. I love the challenge of fighting the Mk. I, her unique armament makes her a challenge.

As for the looks of the class. well they had to grow on me, and to be honest i prefer the looks of the Excelsior over many of the ships that were to follow her in design.

We have the Constellation and Excelsior giving us a glimpse in that lost 75 years. A glimpse of the Federation thoughts on design

At the end of the TMP era the Federation was switching from balancing their ships from a defensive posture based on phasers to a fleet with an offensive punch built around the Photon Torpedo. Torpedoes were becoomming more and more important to the federation. When you look at the Enterprise (Connie Refits) class you see the ships weapons balanced toward long range phasers backed up with torpedoes, but when you look at the Constellation class (FASA and most other interpretations) you see the weapons more balanced to being the same range. Not only is the balance of range of the weapons are on par with each other, you find that the Constellation also has a larger torpedo battery that covers better arcs of fire.

Where you can fine tune a phaser attack by adjusting power to the weapons, the torpedo is a big bang for your buck at a less of a cost to ships energy. It is an excellent offensive weapon.

So you have to ask yourself, is the Federation, at the end of the TMP era, changing its defensive view of the price of peace is eternal vigilance to a policy of the best defense is a powerful offense.

FASA was taking us toward Operation Armageddon when they lost their license.....

[cowboy40]

Case in point, just last nite a friend of mine and I played a round of action.

I took out a Constellation and engaged him in an action that really showed the raw firepower of where the Federation ships were going.

In the first turn of the game I entered the map in the top left hand corner hex of the map and immediately picked up his force of three ships.

His three ships were moving a head in a staggered line a head formation with his D-10H in the lead with a two D-7 staggered to the left coming in behind.

I closed to within a medium range with his task force and split fire between the D-10 and the lead D-7 dividing my firepower between them. The Constellation's strong torpedo armament did its job and severely damaged both ships and the strong shielding and strong superstructure allowed her to take a severe beating on the starboard side of the ship and still be able to swing around and engage the ships on the next turn.

In the exchange Constellation did loose communications, some weapons damage and shields were brought down on the starboard side, but in the next turn I was able engage from the port beam. So in turn two both of the damaged Klingon ships were finished off without offering much of a return fire, and second d-7 fired her torpedoes that were shrugged off by the Constellation's shields. The D-10 was blown out of the sky, and the lead D-7 went dead in space.

Turn three was the final turn of the game and well probably the most interesting and lucky shot I have ever fired in this game happened. As we outmaneuvered the two ships I fired one photorp at a range I figured I would miss him and well the damn torpedo hit him in an unshielded spot that inflected 20 damage points all to his superstructure destroying the ship. This should have been a throw away shot just to buy time to bring my weapons damage back online. Neither of us could believe what just happened....

So in the end My Constellation defeated a Klingon force that consisted of a D-10H, a D-7S and a D-7M. It was the D-7m that that lucky torpedo killed.

But the encounter shows which way the Federation ships were going in FASA Trek.

Damn the Constellation is truly a monster in the Kirk era....

[MajorRacal]

That just reinforces why we didn't use these ships much when they were published. There was almost nothing to offer them a suitable combat challenge out of the box and as you attest, even battle fleets are easily swatted. If FASA had retained the license for longer, I'm sure the adversaries would have seen some comparable shifts in combat capabilities.

[Spocksbrain]

I can see why you are a "Major", Racal.

[cowboy40]

Yes,I believe f the license would have been held longer the constellation would have had a ship that could compete with her.

though we do have to remember in the TNG era Constellation is a bit of well just your everyday old space frame, using mostly technology from a previous century. In the TNG era she is well rather out gunned. It is fun taking a group of them out and trying to overcome the Next Generation of designs.

[pericles]

I was running a campaign that started in the TMP era and progressed into the Lost Era. The way I handled the ships was to take the best spaceframes from the FASA ship guides and then applied upgrades from the various Ship Construction guides to vastly improve those ships. I didn't add any new ships, in fact, I believed that, largely due to fan exuberance, there were far too many designs per class than needed (IE too many destroyers, cruisers, scouts, etc). Therefore, I reduced the number of individual ships using the rationalization that budget constraints would mothball older designs and streamline the fleet overall to simplify logistics. In my version of Starfleet, there were only 9 classes of warships: 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 1 scout, 1 light cruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 1 battleship, and 1 assault transport. There were several more support ships freighters and what not, but only those 9 vastly uprated warships. I did the same for all the major races as well to provide a balance of power.

[Spocksbrain]

Where are these "Lost Era" Ships? Can someone stick a link here or something? I'd like to know exactly what we are talking about.

[JAFisher44]

Lost Era typically refers to the time between the TMP Era and the TNG Era. Lost era ships include the Constellation Class, Soyuz Class, all the Wolf 359 kitbashes, and the Ambassador Class. I'm sure there may be some others as well that I just can't think of right now. I have to say that with the exception of the ambasador I'm not that fond of most of them. The Lost Era seems to mostly be the era of shitty kitbashes.

[MajorRacal]

Some of the dreadful FASA designs featured in the TNG era handbooks also hail from the Lost Era.

[JAFisher44]

I was talking about canon ships. I am completely unimpressed with the FASA TNG handbook and find my life is better if I pretend it never happened.