Indomitable or Excelsior...which would you want?

[cowboy40]

In the FASA Trek universe, by 2280, the Federation were fielding two very powerful and large battleships. Both of these classes could kick the snot out of any known ships in space, either be KLingon, Romulan or GORN.

The first four Indomitable Mk. 1 class was developed around the same time as the Enterprise (Constitution Refit) class and were designed to use as many components as possible from that program. These ships were powered by the same warp engines, carried a larger number of the same weapons, and the same defensive shielding as the Enterprise class, but to move their bulk, of the stronger hull, more powerful FIG-2 impulse engines (that produced a 400% output over the Enterprise Mk I's FIE-2)and the weapons load required the larger and more capable M-7 mulitronic computer. These monsters would have been able to defeat anything the other governments were fielding. There FIG-1 warp engines allowed them to maintain the new tactical speed of Warp 8. these four ships were able to keep costs down by using already developed technology. For unexplained (to the public) these ships were immediately mothballed upon completion.

But, Star Fleet was working on another ship, that they felt had already made the Indomitable project obsolete. That ship of course was the "Great Experiment": the Excelsior MK. I type battleship, that was based on the newly developed Transwarp theories. Transwarp was being developed to produce speeds in excess of Warp 12. Along with the new theories in warp engines, came new theories in armament layouts, defensive shielding and computer design. With all the new advances being placed in one hull, the bugs and teething problems quickly began to show themselves in tactical limitations and in the operations of the ships.

This lead Star Fleet to reconsider the mothballing of the Indomitable class ships, because of the delays in the Excelsior program, so the decision was to place the Indomitable back into production as a hedge against the failor of the Great Experiment. With the return of the four mothballed battleship to active service, in response to the Klingon L-24 and the Romulan Z-1, buying a little time, the development team decided to take advantage of new technology to improve the effectiveness of the class. They incorporated the new M-8 computer, which gave them the opportunity to take the modified warp engine developments of the Charger class destroyers, and an increase in offensive armament. So by the time the Excelsior was starting trials, so was the Indomitable Mk II class ship USS Inevitable (NCC-2014). She soon proved the concept a good one, so it was decided to place it in construction and service along side the Excelsior, and her sisters.

With the tactical problems being made evident in the original Excelsior design, modifications were quickly made to solve them, and with the commissioning of USS Columbia (NX-2002) almost a year after the commissioning of the Inevitable, the Excelsior class was deemed ready for full production.

With both classes being in production the Federation would be able to build up a very effective battle line.

The question is, what would you want to command an Indomitable built around proven technology or a high tech wonder like the Excelsior?

[Deleted]

I had to vote for "pretty". I am so shallow.
But the Excelsior class did have a nice long run, once the bugs were worked out.
An extra 8 phasers, more total energy, and more available shields also factored into my decision.

[krebizfan]

Until Excelsior's bugs are fixed and the crew has another couple of years to work up, Indomitable would be the better choice. It typically takes about a year for a new ship in an existing design before the crew operates it effectively.

Indomitable would also work better with an existing fleet; Excelsior will be hampered by the need to accompany a fleet.

Rant: Indomitable has that Schrodinger's History where the ship both exists and does not exist that proves Josh Spencer did a lot of work over in SFB land.

[Deleted]

HEY! Stop being practical

From a totally practical standpoint, I almost agree. But even a mothballed ship needs attention when returned to service. Any machine left to sit (no matter how well preserved) begins to break down, and will have unexpected problems once put under normal loads. I doubt the Indomitables would have as many problems as the Excelsiors though. I'm still gonna stick with the beauty queen though.

[cowboy40]

I also choose the Indomitable simply because it has the proven tech, advancements that were already being placed into the fleet. I believe transition time on the systems would have been much quicker doe to the fact that most of these systems were already in the fleet. Her weapons layout, even though more numerous, were laid out for the tactics already known to the fleet. Crew that were trained on the FWG engines would transition easy and so on.

And given the wide use of the systems being implied, bugs would be worked out quicker. We do have to remember in 2279, much of the equipment aboard the Indomitable Mk. I type had been in fleet service for five or more years. This gave plenty of time to have all the equipment bugs worked out. Even the M-7 computer was proven technology; as it had been used in the Alamo Mk. III type defense outposts as early as 2265. About the only thing new on the Indomitable was the FIG-2 impulse engines, and this was a modification of an existing design.

Indomitable was proof you could put together a war winner on what was becoming matured technology. And all this meant the systems made for an easy transition and an earlier entry into service...

[starcruiser]

I have to go for the Excelsior - just because of the look of that thing. I did think it looked like a pregnant guppy at first but, it grew on me very quick.

The Indomitable may be the better "warship" but, just doesn't have the look of the Excelsior. Besides EXCELSIOR! (Stan Lee)

[cowboy40]

lol

[tinker]

Mk I to Mk I? Excelsior.

Mk II to MK II? Indomitable.

[cowboy40]

The Indomitable Mk. 1 is a good ship, she can meet any of the other battleships in the known part of the Galaxy at the time of her IOC. She handles the Gorn BH-2 very easily without getting hurt at all. All you have to do is lay out of the effective range of its weapons. The Indomitable's weapons allow you to simply lob shots at the enemy and just wear her down. My advice do exactly as i say here, because you don't want to get in close with that 'beast'. The BH-2 with its forward firepower in a close in knock out, you are going to loose, The BH-2 is a monster close range, because of her firepower, mixed with her superstructure means you are going to be facing almost equal firepower...That Gorn ship is a very tough nut to crack.

Against the Nova Z-1 Type 1, the Indomitable doesn't have the luxury of laying back. The Nova's weapons may be on the weaker side of damage but they are accurate at a good range, especially with her beam weapons. her beams can simply wear your shields down and give her a chance to put a torpedo or two into you, Myself i use and trust my shields and superstructure and i get into a knock down slug feast and then i slam the Nova with the Indomitable's overwhelming firepower. That initial exchange of fire usually is enough to keep the Nova on the defensive for the rest of the fight.

Against the L-24A, this is almost a dead even match. The Indomitable stands with more power on her grid and with she has better defensive measures, but firepower goes to the L-24A. Here for the sake of both ships benefits, the battle usually is fought over a long range until one gains the advantage that is going to allow it to come in close. Both ships have effective beam and missile weapons. NO matter when or what you fire you and what your enemy fires you are going to be hit by something. What might give the Federation's beast the advantage is that it uses its energy more efficiently over its grid, and it has more of it to spare. In the end it is going to be the captain that understands his ship to win. In the final analysis, the L-24A seems to be over-gunned and under-powered, while what looks to be a firepower disadvantage for Indomitable allows her to use her energy better use in more powerful phasers over a similar range. This is always a fun battle to fight....be Klingon or Star Fleet these ships are a good match for each other!

[JAFisher44]

I have to vote Excelsior.

I hated that ship when I first saw her! She was all smooth and curvy and stupid! Captain Styles was an arrogant pompous jackass strutting around with his stupid riding crop. It wasn't until years later that I realized that my real problem with her was that she was trying to one-up the Enterprise. Once I realized where the problem was I was able to set it aside and now I can appreciate that ship for the piece of art that she is.

The Indomitable as originally drawn is a stinker! Ugly! Stats wise she looks like a good enough ship. But aesthetics are too important for me. Brad's redraw is a beauty but still not quite as elegant as her competition.

[cowboy40]

Aug 20, 2017 2:41:22 GMT -7 JAFisher44 said:

I have to vote Excelsior.

I hated that ship when I first saw her! She was all smooth and curvy and stupid! Captain Styles was an arrogant pompous jackass strutting around with his stupid riding crop. It wasn't until years later that I realized that my real problem with her was that she was trying to one-up the Enterprise. Once I realized where the problem was I was able to set it aside and now I can appreciate that ship for the piece of art that she is.

The Indomitable as originally drawn is a stinker! Ugly! Stats wise she looks like a good enough ship. But aesthetics are too important for me. Brad's redraw is a beauty but still not quite as elegant as her competition.

I don't mind her being ugly, Indomitable is one hell of a fighting ship!

[cowboy40]

A couple of friends of mine did me a favor tonight; both are experienced players and have an understanding of the ships we are talking about here. They play tested one on one duels using the Indomitable Mk. I, Excelsior Mk. I, L-24A "Ever Victorious", Z-1 Type I "Nova" and the BH-2B battleships.

I wanted to try to make this post as an observer, trying to give an unbiased opinion!

Of course the results were the two Star Fleet vessels won their battles. Both ships handled the Gorn vessel without a problem. Though we did learn to respect that phaser layout (my opinion is changing on this configeration) and the effects it can have in a battle. Yes they pull off power allocation to the main FH-11 weapons, but those FH-5 phasers are accurate enough that it helps spread the damage out on the systems of the enemy ship. This actually has the effect of spreading the effects of the phaser volley over several systems instead of concentrating damage onto one. Yes you have to learn to fight this ship, but once you get her down...It does require a rethink of tactics but it works.

Now the Indomitable more conventional warload can deliver one hell of wallop in that first volley even at longer ranges, and with her phaser fire can actually riddle a ships shields opening her up for a torpedo attack.

Both these ships are awsume weapons systems in their own ways. Very efficient ships....

That said they do take damage in battles against both Romulan and Klingon ships, but again they usually come out on top and win the day. The L-24A and her weapons layout actually plays into the hands of the Federation captains. The Z-1 gets maybe one chance to get a blow in on them.

Now the Klingon ship, has one major weakness. Power defenestration there just isn't enough to cover all the needs of the Ever Victorious. She just can't power everything it needs to in doing battle against the UFP ships. Again stay at range against her and where her down and then close in for the kill when you judge the time right...that is the key judging the time right. A good Klingon captain can inflect damage on those Fed's ships if they play it right, but again the advantage to to the Star Fleet

L-24A also overpowers the Gorn if you stay away from them, but a Klingon loves to get close and this plays into the Gorns' hands. Once it gets close and turns dirty; the Gorn just might win.

The Romulans also fair batter in a battle with Klingon battleships, but again the L-24 using its systems in a balanced manner usually comes out on top

The Gorn, well they have to get close to fight everyone, but if they can do it..the BH-2's massive firepower and tough hull make it able to do heavy damage to the other powers' vessels...

Key here is to know your ships and try to figure out what class your firing by studying the opponents tactics.

Regardless of what you are conning it is still your knowledge, skill, experience and luck that determines how the battle goes.

[trynda1701]

I voted for Indomitable.

In that time frame, the Excelsior class would probably be used as an Explorer and possibly a troubleshooter, because she can outrun all available vessels in the Starfleet! That means until further faster vessels are developed, she is limited to her slowest support vessels' speed travelling to a fleet action!

I think in all our games, we only had a Battleship battle once, I think between a L-24 and a Z-1. I think the Nova won, but it was close. Even in our Klingon vs Romulan campaign, we didn't have those battlewagons involved.

[cowboy40]

Aug 22, 2017 6:20:44 GMT -7 trynda1701 said:

I voted for Indomitable.

In that time frame, the Excelsior class would probably be used as an Explorer and possibly a troubleshooter, because she can outrun all available vessels in the Starfleet! That means until further faster vessels are developed, she is limited to her slowest support vessels' speed travelling to a fleet action!

I think in all our games, we only had a Battleship battle once, I think between a L-24 and a Z-1. I think the Nova won, but it was close. Even in our Klingon vs Romulan campaign, we didn't have those battlewagons involved.

In reality those battlewagons probably wouldn't have been fighting each other These ships are pretty much kept in the interiors of the respective powers. This is for several reasons. These beasts have pretty much the most advanced tech you can throw onto a spaceframe. and the expense of construction is incredible, though the use of maturing tech used on the indomitable keeps this price down a little, it still makes her to expensive just to through away on a ship on ship battle.

These are you prestige ships. Look at what we can do...ain't my flag pretty. Even if they have labs on them, like the Federation ships do, they are to valuable in this time frame to be off looking at the universe on their own.

Even in wartime i don't think these ships would be concentrated into a single line. I really don't think a situation would occur that would lead to a "Jutland" style battle in space (though it would be FUN). I think about the only time we ever concentrated more then two of these things together was when we used them to take down a Defense Outpost and that was two Nova hitting a Klingon Z-4C "Deathgame". The station was heavily damaged, but she drove off the Romulan batttlewagons.

In most actions these are going to be your C3 ships, and your "base of fire" ships that anchor your line in a defense. You most likely will wind up treating them like a movable battle station; place them and leave them there to anchor the action and let your cruisers and frigates, along with destroyers fight the maneuvering actions.

In the TMP era these ships are expensive and rare.....they are most likely going to remain "dock queens" and "hanger whores" depending on your view....regardless using them wisely because they are major resources.

These duels last night were made, and not in Trek "real world" manor, simply because we wanted to know!!

[cowboy40]

and we had a tie in the voting....lol

[cowboy40]

I keep finding myself revisiting the Excelsior Mk. 1 battleships. These are some interesting mounts to come charging into battle with. At first i found them to be awkward to conduct battle operations with. Coming from mostly playing with the Federation's cruisers like the Constitution and Enterprise classes: the usual battle tactics didn't quite match up to the new ship's weapons layout. Took me sometime to understand how to really fight this ship. This is where understanding your weapons come into play. She has a good torpedo armament, mounting four Photon Torpedo launchers (two forward and two aft) capable of throwing the powerful and accurate FP-4 missiles, she can deliver a devastating volley at long ranges. Then she has a very heavy phaser armament; though this is a mix of the powerful long range FH-11 phasers and the medium ranged FH-5 weapons.

The FH-5 beam projectors are arranged along the ships broadside arcs, and they trade power and damage for accuracy, while the FH-11 emitters are arranged in the more traditional multi-directional banks.

Once you start to learn the ships, this weapons suite gives you one hell of a broad range of tactical maneuver. At long range engagements, the ship can be handled like a cruiser, even though on paper she would appear to be at a disadvantage to say an Enterprise class ship, but once you move to within the effective range of those very accurate medium range phasers, the ship's combat layout begins to show its advantages. Her phaser armament can out perform just about any other ship out there.

Now this new effective weapons suite would be useless on a ship that didn't have a good defensive capability, and the Excelsior Mk. I achieves this by firstly having a hull that is constructed heavy. (in FASA, she has a hull strength of 38 compared to an Enterprise Mk. III's 28). This heavy hull is also backed up by one hell of a shield system that delivers one of the strongest defensive ratings in the Kirk era at actually a very low price in power.

Of course none of these systems would do any good with out an efficient power grid, and with 108 movement points avalible and an efficient 6 point to 1 movement ratio, which is efficient for a ship of this size: she has an ability that most of the other "foreign" battleships don't have. SHE isn't under powered. This in tern means she isn't over gunned to the same extant as the Klingon L-24A is.

What does all this mean? Well, i just watched an Excelsior, last night, kick the snot out of a force consisting of three Klingon battle groups. One battle group consisted of two D-7M and a D-7R, another the command group was a D-10H, supported by a a couple of D-12A cruisers, and the third group was a mix of D-18 destroyers.

The mistake the Klingon commander made was his ships were to spread out. The three groups weren't able to give mutual support until it was to late. The Excelsior easily defeated the force of D-7's. She blew one D-7M from the sky and notified the other two by causing to many casualties for the ships to remain in action, before the other groups could reach the fight. That alone was an epic battle that demonstrated the advantage of this beast. The Excelsior did loose a forward torpedo tube during the fighting, but her shields and hull kept most damage down to a minimal. She quickly recovered her lost crew figures as the remaining ships closed.

The next phase of the fight was the Excelsior captain deciding to concentrate on the supporting destroyers rather then the cruisers. The idea was to cut the numbers game down. raise the odds from six to one, so something more manageable. She did make quick work of the D-18's, but she also left herself open to taking heavy hits from the cruisers, but she was able to ride out most of the fire. That damn strong hull again.

Another mistake made was the Klingons broke formations....this actually made it easier the Excelsior to engage priority targets. Once the formations broke, the Excelsior concentrated her heaviest fire on the D-10H. Once the D-10 was destroyed the remaining three Klingon ships abandoned the field. This consisted of both D-12A cruisers and the D-18 destroyer.

Now the Excelsior did take a pounding in this last phase of the battle. Her Shield generators were heavily damaged, but forward torpedo tubes were gone. Her power was reduced to 90 points and her hull was down to 12 points from the 38. More importantly her crew was down to 71 percent. This factors were starting to leave the beast venerable to the enemy.

I think, if the Klingon commander would have held his nerve with this remaining ships, he could have either destroyed, incapacitated or driven the Excelsior from the field.

But i have differently learned to respect the Excelsior Mk. I over time!!!!

[tinker]

The Klingon commander did not understand the fundamentals of how Klingon ships are supposed to fight. He should have been able to cripple or destroy the Excelsior with half of the ships he had available. The group of D-7s alone should have inflicted as much damage as the Excelsior sustained in the battle report.

For me, the FH-5s were just icing on the cake. The FH-11s are more accurate and hit harder - by far the better of the two phaser weapons. I would never put more than one or two power points into any of the FH-5s and fire them AFTER the FH-11s had brought down the shields of the ship I was targeting. The extra hits from these phasers could disable a shield generator, beam or missile weapon or get that extra hit on the bridge or engineering for the low, low price of a couple power points.

You are right about the Excelsior being a very maneuverable ship. The guys in my gaming group would shy away from playing it because all they saw was the "6/1 MPR" - not realizing that it had an abundance of power to make up for the poor ratio (in our gaming group, maneuver was almost always the key to the battle).

The Excelsior is good - but not THAT good.

[cowboy40]

It was bad tactical thinking that lost the battle for the Klingons...but that said, I also saw someone who understood what he had in a Excelsior Mk. I, and he had the ability to read the field well. A good ship mixed with a good tactician made the difference in this battle. He also had some good luck, especially in the fight with the D-7 group. The D-7R remained cloaked way to long in my opinion. I guess he was hoping for a chance to "sneak in", but the Excelsior got a lucky torpedo hit on the D-7R while she was still cloaked....that rattled the D-7R pretty good!!!