A killer denied.....

[cowboy40]

The Seawolf class of nuclear powered attack submarines are probably the best boats in the western arsenal in terms of capabilities, but these boats were designed for a mission hat disappeared while they were under construction.

The primary mission of the class was to have been to penetrate the Soviet SSBN boomer bastions and hunt down and kill the enemy boomers before they had a chance to launch their missiles. This was more of a political and military deterrent then a mission that could have produced results (my opinion, because once the Soviets leaned their boomers were under attack, given the mentality of the "Cold War", they probably would have ordered a launch before their boats got plugged).

The Seawolf, and her mission was part of the New Maritime Strategy developed under the Reagan Administration to place pressure on the Soviet Navy. This strategy marked a shift in defensive warfare of NATO to an offensive stance. This shift was accomplished by forward deploying large numbers of US Navy Carrier Battle Groups (CBG), Surface Action Groups (SAG), and Amphibious Ready Groups (ARG) in both the Atlantic and Pacific. (This is part of the reason the USN had a goal of 600 ships in the late 80's). Basically it was the USN and her allies showing power projection close to Soviet assets. They wanted to present a credible threat to Soviet sea movements.

Seawolf, and her planned 28 sisters, were to be a part of that new power projections. They were designed to be one of the quietest submarines ever developed. They were built around systems designed designed to track, classify and engage multiple targets at once. The propulsion was designed around propulsive technology that allowed them to be as a quiet as a 688I submarine even at high speeds. And, they were designed to carry double the supplies and weapons of a Los Angeles class submarine. Even during attack they were designed to maintain the quiet. They use over sized torpedo tubes to (30 inch as opposed to 21 in diameter tubes) that allowed them to "swim out" weapons instead of having to fire them with compressed air.

The problem is that due to delays and political changing events, the Seawolf, the last real Cold War submarine design was denied its place in the navy. These oversized "blue water" boats were just to expensive and to big to be maintained and procured in large numbers in an era that was perceived not to have an opponent for them to engage, in the designed mission profile.

In this new era of littoral combat, the Seawolfs, though capable, are proving hard to operate. The boat's design is proving to be a problem in these waters. This is one of the reasons the USN switched to the Virginia class of submarines (my opinion again, I don't think the Virginia class boats are any where near as capable of the Seawold in feeling traditional attack boat roles). With the rise of China as a naval opponent I am thinking canceling the large order of Seawolf class boats may come back to be a problem.

Virginia is a good replacement for the older Los Angeles class boats, but for where it counts, killing boomers, that mission belongs to these technological terrors like USS Seawolf.....

[starcruiser]

The Seawolf was NOT intended for littoral waters. In fact, no nuke boat is really designed with that environment in mind.

I've gone down this road before but, the Navy MUST acquire some AIP type conventional subs specifically for use in littorals. Personally, I don't understand their single-minded addiction to nuclear power for subs and carriers.

This of it this way, if you can only support about 40-50 subs in service - if they are all nukes - but need to have enough boats to cover deep-water ops, littoral ops and defense of local waters (i.e. the East Coast, West Coast Gulf Coast - Hawaii etc...) you have a serious problem.

Air Independent Propulsion (several variants exist) allows you to build a sub at a much lower cost, that can actually be MORE dangerous to an enemy (quieter, in general) and could also have a smaller crew needed. Such boats DON'T need to have the same deep-water capabilities as an SSN or SSGN/SSBN - AND will free up the SSN force for more deep-water ops by taking their place in defensive rolls.

The standard complaint is that you have to support them with fuel and supplies more so that nuke boats but, if they are intended for use nearer friendly waters..? How is that an issue?

[cowboy40]

Back in the day, when we practiced ASW on the Wainwright, our biggest problems were actually caused by the Barbel class boats. Those ships proved they still had a place in the fleet, my opinion anyway. I have thought for a long time that the USN should build ships similar to the Japanese submarines. Capable of deep water operations but can also handle the defense!!!

[starcruiser]

Bingo! Exactly what I was talking about. Old Diesel boats have been an issue for years (even the outdated Kilo's are still a threat). AIP boats tend to be even quieter than Diesels so..?

What's the hold up? Politics and money...money and politics...

[cowboy40]

That all said up there, and even though i am out of he Navy now, I still do a lot of naval simulation..computer nd paper....

I can tell you even in the restricted play of simulations...the Seawolf is a beast. In the games, I have used her to to penetrate the bastions. Running under those damn Russian frigates is not an easy task i tell you....in game play, it took me the equivalent of five hours just to find a hole in the defense to sneak into...

Once in, I was able to find and destroy two boomers..type unknown...and i found myself facing an Akula.....I put two Mk48's toward her and turned and used my quiet speed to run...

I made it out of the Bastian, but i got caught just outside of it, and i lost my boat. Of all things I Victor III got me!!!! i got careless...i made a stupid mistake....i forgot to clear my baffles....and i took a torpedo....

But in the trade off two boomers were gone and an Akula....i think we did our job!!!

[starcruiser]

Fewer ICBMs - always a good thing!

[cowboy40]

I started this thread about three years ago, and my opinion of these boats have not changed..these things are still beasts when I play run them. They become even deadlier when you put a few UGM-84C Harpoon, UGM-109 Tomahawk TASM, and a few UUR-125B Sea Lance ASW rockets aboard her. Yes I know Sea Lance didn't make into service.

Sea Lance was ready for full production when the program was cancelled due to the collapse of the Soviet threat. That was another mistake. Like Seawolf, the Sea Lance program should have continued. Sea Lance was suppose to be retrofitted to the Los Angeles class boats (SSN-719 onward)that were equipped with the Mk. 117 fire control system that was integrated into the new electronics system used on the boats.

Sea Lance would have given a good stand off weapon to the boats, and the TASM (Tactical Anti-Ship Missile) would be used to force the door open to get out of the bastion. While in the bastion Sea lance would be used to engage any enemy SSN, while Mk. 48 ADCAP torpedoes would be used to knock of the boomers.

With these systems, The Seawolf would have really been the ultimate submarine platform.

[cowboy40]

Back in the 1960's, when the USN was still building up its numbers in the the SSN/SSBN fleet, the navy was still using attack boats of conventional types. The Barbel class boats were the most advanced of these boats. Their teardrop hull was based on the experimental Albacore's hull. These three little boats could, and did, run with the Skipjack class of SSN in performance.

The Navy also had the six Tang class and the Darter. These boats were built from the kill up to be based off the Type XXI hull. These boats were very capable for what they were. They did one hell of a mission profile in service. They had the attributes and proved the Type X Xi hull was a good hull choice as well, though not as capable as the Albacore hull.

It is ironic that the USN's main force of submarines during this time from around mid 1950's to around 1970, was still boats built during World War II. How ever, these boats were highly modified under the GUPPY (Greater Under Water Propulsion Project), that streamlining the hulls, improving the quietness of them, New "Sails" replacing the old conning towers, adding snorkels, better batteries, replacing old props with a new design. and mounting the diesel engines on rubber covered mountings to reduce vibrations. The boats in use during this time roughly fell into three types. GUPPY II, which had all the design changes and had some rework of internal spaces to create an attack center on the boats. GUPPY II was found to be to expensive by the budget axe, so the Navy built the GUPPY IIA that had the streamlining of the hull and some of the engineering plant work (the new props and engine mountings, but did not include modifying the boats to take the new GUPPY batteries. They carried the modified Sargo battery instead), They did not receive the internal work either, except losing one of the four diesels, to make room for the new electronics.

Then we come to the last of the GUPPY III class that modified the best condition hulls in the 1960's, under the FRam (Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization)program. This would have turned out the Guppy III type boats. This added an entire new "plug" section into the hulls to improve the habitability of the boats and to make room for better sonar gear. It was planned to bring all the GUPPY II and the best condition of the GUPPY IIA boats to this standard, but again the Ripper and his Budget axe made the coat down to only six boats.

The GUPPY plan was opposed by some members of congress from the start. They felt it was to expensive in a peace time navy. so the USN was being forced to come up with a way to improve the old fleet boats, so 17 boats received the very limited Fleet Snorkel Boat project. The Fleet Snorkel's were limited to getting a new sail and snorkel and removal of topside noise making hardware, and some updated electronics, but they didn't get any of the extensive engineering or hull improvements. These boats proved to be very limited in the late 1950's and 60's, but they still had their place in the fleet. They carried out clandestine work, defensive patrols and they were the main training boats in the Naval Reserve Force for submarines.

GUPPY III and GUPPY II proved the fleet boats still had a place, and they were slowly withdrawn from service as more nukes become available. It wasn't their design that held them back, it was the desire for nukes...

[cowboy40]

You know it was the GUPPY type boats that held the "gap" during the 1960s, while SOSUS was being built up.

These boats would be sent to the Greenland, Iceland, and UK line, the Gap, to become holes in the ocean. They pretty much crept around in patrol boxes, just listening, and if the time came they would use their Mk. 37 torpedoes against enemy boats. I should point out that these boats were just as capable of attacking surface targets as well.

GUPPY III, carried equipment to even fire the Mk. 45 ASTOR nuclear tipped wire guided torpedo, so when MK.48 became available they were able to fire it as well...if they would have still been in service.

[starcruiser]

Yep - but, the old Guppy conversions were based on (by the 1970's) very elderly WW2 era subs. Still could be dangerous, under the right conditions but, metal fatigue and just general age wears even the best designed boats down over the years.