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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 8, 2018 20:46:43 GMT -7
Just for giggles, I replayed the scenario "A Romulan Surprise" from FASA's "The White Flame" scenario pack on Jason Robinson's PC adaptation. In it, a single V-30 Type 2 is confronted by two D-10G cruisers and a L-9B frigate. Twelve turns in two CS-2 Type 6 scouts enter to assist the V-30. Now it has been asserted that it is impossible for the Romulan to win since it is put into a situation that shouldn't exist. Regardless of how one may feel about FASA's writing or reasoning for this particular set up, the Romulan can achieve victory. It is a very pitched battle and it does heavily favor the Klingon task force however.
First of all I have always held the belief that the Victory Tables for this scenario are messed up. The Attacker's victory (the Klingons) is based on the number of turns it takes to destroy the defender (the Romulan). The Defender's victory is based on a points system established earlier on in the book. In any event, since this scenario is only a small part of an overall scenario, the longer it takes the Klingon's to dispatch the V-30 the worse off they will be later on.
At the beginning of this scenario various vessels are given point values that are used for determining victory, so in this scenario the D-10s are worth 66 points and the L-9 is worth 60. Vessels forced to retreat off the board are worth half. I've always included vessels that were also so badly damaged they weren't able to continue. Values are not given for the V-30 (or the CS-2s) since points for these ships were not needed.
The charts listed are as follows. Like I said, I think they are backwards, but I'll let you guys debate that.
Attacker Victory Table (probably should be Defender Victory Table) 1 - 23 points. Total Defeat 24 - 36 points. Minor Victory 37 - 56 points. Victory 60+ points. Complete Victory
Defender Victory table (probably should be Attacker Victory Table) 1 - 5 turns. Complete Victory 6 - 8 turns. Partial Victory 9 - 10 turns. Minor Victory 11+ turns. Total Defeat.
Regardless of the accuracy of the charts, here is my result.
After eight turns of continually ducking and dodging the front and aft arcs of two heavy torpedo armed D-10G cruisers, I finally succumbed to glory and exploded in between the three ships. I had done some damage to both D-10s in the process, but had been focusing on the L-9 throughout most of the game, roughing it up pretty badly through both crew and engine damage.
By turn nine my crew was down to 45% and my superstructure was about 25%. I had lost the port and aft/port disruptors and had just fixed the #6 shield. My engines however, were only down one power point when I was caught in between both cruisers, which had spread far enough apart to cover each other and the damaged frigate with torpedoes. Since there was no way for me to move into a position where I could evade both torpedoes, I went all in on weapons and left a token shield up in the direction of the one torpedo, hoping to lessen the sting. Sadly, I couldn't maneuver to hit the L-9 I had been picking on, but managed to maul one of the D-10s pretty badly.
My ship detonated right next to the one D-10 and the L-9, the explosion splash catching the second D-10 about two hexes out. This resulted in the L-9's crew liquifying and leaving it a burned out hulk with 1 SS and a few token engine points. The adjacent D-10 survived the blast apparently, but it was left with about 5% crew and superstructure. It also took enough damage to rip at least one warp nacelle off and blow holes in the impulse deck. The second D-10 fared better, but it had been banged up.
So, what was my analysis of this battle?
The book states that these ships never operate alone, but it is written from a Federation perspective from across the Neutral Zone, so it could very well be that V-30s are never alone along this flank, however in this scenario the V-30 starts alone, so I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of a ship's escort on an unknown border (and won't be dragged into one either since I think anything is plausible where fiction is concerned).
That being said, in this scenario I have to give it to the V-30 for doing the job it was forced into. Eliminating the L-9 was worth 60 points. The mauled D-10 would be hard pressed to go on any further in the next scenarios without major repairs, so one could probably count that as half points (so 33). The second D-10 was still in good fighting trim even with the damage it had taken, so I would leave that one alone.
But it was the amount of time it took for them to finally get me. The V-30 only really has to play a delaying action, holding up the Klingon's long enough to make them late for their rendezvous with the rest of the task force heading into Romulan space.
Turn Nine: Minor Victory for Attacker 99 points: Complete Victory for Defender
The only thing about Jason's game is the movement cap at 9 Movement Points. I don't know if it is only my copy that does that. Anyone else with that problem?
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Post by rabid on Oct 9, 2018 5:43:13 GMT -7
Love the white flame book!
Were you cloaking during the scenario?
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 10, 2018 20:00:20 GMT -7
I did for one round, but I find that the computer seems to lock in on you much easier that I remember it happening for real, so after getting peppered that round, I forewent the cloak for speed and maneuverability. I find that the V-30 works a lot more effectively when not relying on the cloak crutch. It has enough power to move quick, arm small batches of weapons and power up most of its shields to 9 or 12, depending on the situation. Having to fight three ships at once required far more finesse and speed than stealth anyway.
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Post by Gorn on Oct 13, 2018 12:15:42 GMT -7
Since they can blow down your shields with repeated shots, it's a useless game to me. Were I playing this scenario, I'd simply cloak and not move, making it harder to be targeted. The longer you can draw it out without being hit, the closer you get to your reinforcement's arrival; in which case I would beam the crew from one escort onto another ship and ram the skeleton crew ship into a D10. Or else sit on top of it and detonate, dealing 2x dmg.
Of course, if the computer can easily find you AND fire all weapons in one phase, you're pretty screwed. For me that is not even a game worth playing. It needs to be made more interesting with asteroid or planet sensor shadows, etc.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 15, 2018 23:32:19 GMT -7
So I decided to start doing some of the mission scenarios from The White Flame in the PC. I took it from the GM point of view, playing the NPC ships and letting the computer run the Klingons. Might be a bad idea. I generally don't lose to the computer, but since some of the scenarios have specific tasks the NPCs need to do to achieve victory while the Klingons generally need to eliminate the NPCs, it seemed the only way to balance out some scenarios.
Now some of them are just too large to do on my old tank of a computer (which is still running XP and was an old machine when I got it 14 years ago) so I will be skipping some of the larger battles, but as I plod on through this experiment, I hope it's entertaining enough to continue.
AYIRN PATROL
The first mission in the White Flame book, the Red Wing of the 123rd Klingon Assault Flotilla, consisting of a D-7M cruiser and two D-2B destroyers manages to slip across the Federation/Klingon border undetected to perform lightning raids on Federation shipping. The Klingon's attack a convoy near the Ayirn System consisting of four Lotus Flower Neutronium Carriers and two Mk-II Baker class destroyers. A third Federation vessel, the U.S.S. Yamato, a Mk-III Constitution heavy cruiser, is operating nearby and forms the Federation reinforcements around turn 6.
The Freighters need to escape the board in order to thwart the Klingons.
The opening few turns were rather uneventful as I deliberately moved slowly across the map in order to buy time for the Yamato to arrive. The two Bakers were going to be no match for the Klingons and I knew it. I don't thing the A.I. knew that though since it did some pretty weird maneuvering the first few turns which kept them at a long enough range to make their heavy torpedo count useless. (I have found however, that sometimes the game seems to forget the ranges of these weapons since I have been hit by disruptor and phaser fire from 30 hexes out)
Once we closed up though, it didn't look good for the Federation. The two D-2Bs focused on one of the destroyers and eliminated it immediately. Eight 10 point torpedoes will do that. The second Baker ran interference for the freighters though by making itself a target for several more turns until the Yamato finally arrived. (The book required a roll to be made in order for the Yamato to arrive on turn 6. I forewent this rule for expediency. Also, I had to program the ship into the simulator from the beginning, so it sat with full shields, dormant in the corner of arrival until needed or the A.I. fired upon it because it would have been considered a target. Fortunately the Klingons didn't get close enough to warrant it a threat)
The Yamato's arrival drastically changed the tide of battle however. The freighters took a bit of damage, but not enough to slow them down (granted, with a loaded movement point ratio of 7/1 and only 18 points of power, they were already pretty damn slow). Once the Yamato got into range, it became the more popular target, which bought the Baker a bit more time.
Eventually the Baker would suffer enough engine damage to be rendered off line, however the crew was still 90% intact and the Superstructure was actually still in good shape. She could be repaired, but in trying to shut the Federation destroyer down the Klingons allowed the Yamato to close into lethal range. Careful maneuvering around the bow arcs of the D-2Bs avoided the deadly torpedo volleys of those little destroyers and gave the Yamato an opportunity to plug the D-7M, which is really no match for the venerable Mk-III Constitution. (I redid the "Big Bad Wolf" scenario from the game with a D-10G and found that to be a much better match, but in the hands of a skilled captain even the D-10 loses)
The freighters slowly made their way across the board as the Yamato began dogging the remaining D-2Bs. I was surprised at how resilient those little buggers are. I pounded away at both for several more turns, eventually crushing one while the other seemed to want to get away. It ran for the edge of the map and spent movement points ramming up against the invisible end of the universe as it were. At that point though, it had taken enough engine damage that it could only muster about 4 movement points anyway after arming up whatever the A.I. is programmed to arm. Once I knew the convoy was safe, I "chased" the destroyer, eventually hunting it down and killing it, but not after toying with the little ship like a cat does a mouse. I had fun running up the turn counter while pinging single and double points off its ass with phaser shots.
Victory: Federation.
Aftermath: Barring my childish antics, the Yamato probably would have let the fleeing D-2B go once it started running away and gone back to tend to its own destroyer compatriot. The loss of the first Baker was, in my mind, going to be inevitable, especially on a map board that doesn't float to allow for much greater movement options. Fixed playing fields have always bothered me, so eliminating the fixed border and allowing a scrolling field was one of the first things I did when we started playing. The game has much more leg when you aren't forced to close, close, close, blast!
The freighters, though really slow, aren't slouches in the defense department. Sure, 12 shield points in one shield isn't great, but when all you can do is plod along while the enemy tries to ping you with three or four 3 point disruptor blasts at range while using their heavy torpedo armament for the defending capital ships (which, if done right usually won't come into play anyway) they are more than adequate.
Devil's Advocate: Granted, the A.I. of the game is pretty simple and since it is impossible to program the game with a sense of purpose; attacking the freighters quickly and dispatching the escorts before the cavalry arrives, the outcome versus a human player feels a bit tainted. I have run this scenario with real players and found that the Klingons will generally succeed more times than not, especially if they stick to the script and really try to get the job done before the Yamato shows up. When it does, the tide does turn however, especially with a very good captain at the con. I've seen cocky Klingon players get their asses handed to them trying to take out the Yamato, eventually breaking contact by warping away. Some have done it, but it usually costs them a ship or two in the process.
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Post by starcruiser on Oct 16, 2018 17:15:04 GMT -7
Yep - the A.I. needs major improvement. I don't know how many times I've watched an A.I. keep slamming into a planet or moon (I usually like those blocking movement and fire).
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Post by trynda1701 on Oct 17, 2018 5:53:35 GMT -7
Keep posting your battles, I for one want to see how they go. I can't remember if it's in the rules officially, but when I was introduced to the STSTCS game in 1990 or so, our GM always played with a floating map.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 17, 2018 23:18:04 GMT -7
The second scenario in the White Flame book, Operation Breakthrough, is a big battle between the entire 123rd Flotilla and two waves of Federation defenders. That would be 16 ships split between two sides with the Klingon's having numerical superiority. While the numbers game wasn't the problem, it was the sheer size of the battle that would probably give my computer fits. The game runs pretty slowly sometimes, even with only 4 or 6 ships on the board, so I decided to skip this one and go to the third scenario, which is an aftermath of the second scenario.
REPRISAL
During the Battle of Diogenes the Steel Wing of the Klingon Battle Group, consisting of one D-7M cruiser (Bloodspiller) and two D-18B destroyers (Defender/Hunter) was forced to retreat under heavy fire. During the final warp out ordered by the Admiral, Kuge found himself separated from the retreat home. Instead of immediately returning to Klingon space, the Steel Wing hid within a small, unoccupied system to repair the substantial damage sustained during the combat.
They did not manage to reach the border unchallenged. They were intercepted by a Chandley Mk-I frigate (U.S.S. East Anglia).
NOTES: This particular scenario is supposed to take place at Warp 9, which would involve the use of the Stress Charts. Since the PC version lacks that, this may not be a perfect battle recreation. Furthermore, one of the Klingon d-18Bs has the #1 Shield Generator shot out and is missing 4 power points from its Warp Drive.
The Klingons needed to avoid destruction for five full turns in order to claim victory. The Federation frigate needed to knock out as many of the Klingons as possible before the end of the fifth turn.
VICTORY TABLE
Defender/Result 0 ships destroyed/Complete Victory 1 ship destroyed/Major Victory 2 ships destroyed/Minor Victory 3 ships destroyed/Utter Defeat
Special Rules: Ships may not warp out or leave the board. Doing so forces that vessel to deviate from its course into the Neutral Zone, placing it at the mercy of other Federation vessels in the area.
This particular mission gave me some trouble. I did it a total of five times just to get a good cross section of results. Five turns is a rather short game for me, so I had to use much more direct tactics in order to achieve some sort of victory. In the real world we've run this scenario about two dozen times and each time the Federation player has had a lot of trouble getting all three Klingon ships in the five turns allotted. This simulation was no exception and I failed to get all three ships in any of the five attempts. The best I could pull off was two and only managed to survive twice for the full five turns myself.
The real kicker in this particular scenario isn't the D-7M, it's the two D-18Bs that give the most trouble. Each one carries six forward firing disruptors and even though they use Chart P, which is not known for its accuracy at any range, that's 12 4 point dingers that are really hard to defend against, especially when the A.I. of the game seems to have heard my disparaging remarks and played smart for a change.
In most of the scenarios I tried the D-7M would lunge forward to bring its torpedo to bear as soon as possible, but the D-18Bs would lag behind, covering the cruiser with that withering barrage of disruptors. The first attempt saw me get obliterated pretty early; about the third round. I had scored some damage on the cruiser, but not much else. Granted, I was missing on 80% to hits with nearly all my weapons (who would have thought a computer would hold a grudge?). The Klingons were pelting me with that crummy disruptor chart at long range. It got annoying.
The second attempt seemed to follow the first, but I did manage to get one of the D-18Bs to buckle before I bought it in the fourth turn.
The third and fourth attempts I altered some of my tactical doctrines and went all in early, powering up weapons and shields at the sacrifice of movement. The third attempt I still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, however the fourth attempt seemed to be more balanced as I manage to eliminate the D-7M and one of the D-18Bs before succumbing to my damage and powering down.
The fifth attempt saw me much more triumphant as I eliminated both D-18Bs by the fourth turn. I managed to bang up the D-7M pretty good on the last turn, but not enough to kill it. It took three more turns of creative flying to finally knock it out. I fared much better, surviving the encounter with 80% crew, 90% superstructure, and 85% power. Most of the damage I did sustain came at the end when the D-7M erupted all over my bow when it exploded.
Final Tally: Complete Victory: Two (attempts one and three) Major Victory: One (attempt two) Minor Victory: Two (attempts four and five) Utter Defeat: None (since I failed to knock out all three in the time allotted)
Aftermath: This particular mission is exceptionally hard for the Federation player and even though the C.E. favors the lone Chandley, it's still a three on one battle. Like I said, those D-18Bs hurl a lot of little pings at you and if they hit even 50% of the time, that's an average of 4 points of damage six times. You have to spend a lot of points to put up enough shields to cover enough arcs to take some of the sting out of it. You also have to put in a fair amount for movement in order to line up the three ships to hit different shields. It's one hell of an exercise in maneuver and tactical doctrine, especially if you factor in avoiding the 15 point photon torpedoes that come out of the nose and ass of that D-7M.
Devil's Advocate: I'll be honest. I've never been a big fan of the Chandley. It's a big, gorgeous looking ship and the Mk-IV is a fine variant, but the Mk-I handles like a garbage scow. There just isn't enough power to push that beast around, even at a 3/1 movement ratio and throw any kind of damage around. Since you need to outmaneuver three Klingon ships that share a similar power to movement ratio and have nearly the same amount of power generation capability, the Chandley just isn't up to the task of flanking, protecting itself, and throwing damage around, especially since the Klingon's have only one target to deal with and do not need to spend nearly enough power to outmaneuver a single ship. This provides them with more power to put up one token shield and throw more ordinance down field.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 24, 2018 23:58:15 GMT -7
The next mission in the book is called Asteroid Rain. It's a simple set up pitting a Constitution Mk-III against a D-10G (The Claw of the Riyty). The problem is that you need several things that cannot be duplicated in the PC Sim. First of all are the asteroids. Yes, you can map them into the game, however in the scenario they are supposed to move, which can't be duplicated.
Secondly, the objective of the mission is for either side to capture the U.S.S. Searcher, an Anton Class Research Cruiser, which has lost its crew to an unknown plague it was researching and drifted into the asteroid belt where it was damaged. Both sides are required to roll against the captain's tactic skill to avoid opening fire on each other, which prolongs the tension. Since the A.I. cannot be programmed for this, it would automatically assume the Searcher is a hostile vessel and open fire on it as soon as possible, even though the mission would actually be to board and capture it.
Since these conditions could not be met, I skipped this mission and went on to the next. In real game terms, I have used this set up on several occasions, as I am sure most others have. The "Damsel in Distress" is a timeless plot device. What makes it interesting is the movement of the asteroids, but that's part of the fun. I have however played numerous battles in the PC Sim with the Constitution Mk-III and the D-10G from both sides and have been victorious regardless of the ship I play.
This brings me to the next episode, which seems a little out of place sequentially. Date wise it happens after the previous scenario, however it mentions one of the Klingon commanders, Kuge, being "penalized" for a punitive attack on the Imperial Klingon States, a splinter rebel group that was formed in The Triangle area shortly after the Four Years War.
All confusion aside however...
HERO'S WELCOME
The V-6 Gallant Wing cruiser "Ramelia" crossed the Neutral Zone under orders to attack military targets within the sector, attempting to weaken the area for an upcoming campaign. The cruiser spent a week carefully crossing the neutral zone, slipping undetected into Klingon space.
Notes: This particular scenario is supposed to be a chase, starting at Warp 3 and accelerating to Warp 9. That obviously doesn't happen here.
The Defending Force is the Steel Wing of the 123rd, consisting of a D-7M (Bloodspiller) and two D-18Bs (Defender, Hunter). They start anywhere on the right edge of the map.
The Attacking Force is a lone V-6 Type 5 (Ramelia). The ship can start anywhere and may start cloaked.
The attacker wins a major victory if all three ships are destroyed and a minor victory if two are destroyed. The defender wins if only one vessel is lost.
Special Rules: The Romulan can escape by warping out. The Klingon's only means of escape is to make it to the opposite side of the map.
If the last mission I did for this exercise gave me trouble, this one gave me fits. In the PC Sim, there is NO WAY the Romulan can hope to achieve any kind of success. I have played 10 missions so far (and still plan to try) and have changed the starting point of the Romulan numerous times, tried tactics and strategy used the numerous times we've played this particular mission in real time, experimented with various "extreme tactical choices" and placements and have yet to even survive the encounter let alone destroy a single ship. There is something amiss in programming that is allowing the Klingons to find me while cloaked and spank my pointy eared butt before I can respond. I've tried forgoing the cloak and starting almost on top of the Klingons and still can't get the job done.
The V-6 Type 5 is a nice ship... when the cloak attack works, otherwise it's more of a lunker than the Mk-I Chandley. It's the ease of which the A.I. seems to find cloaked vessels and hit them that breaks an otherwise classic set up for any Romulan vessel. Even standing perfectly still, waiting for them to accidentally wander into my gun-sights proved pointless as they pinpointed me and plastered me with all those nasty, supposedly inaccurate Chart P disruptors from the destroyers. I even moved the Klingons in a bit and put the V-6 behind them and they still pounced on me almost immediately.
Aftermath: The jury is still out on this one. I usually don't quit trying until at least a modicum of success can be claimed, so I intend to keep plugging away at it from time to time. For this update though, I'm calling it a loss, at least for the PC Sim version. Since it is a combat game and it is assumed that there is a target out there, the A.I., as rudimentary and simplistic as it may be, expects "something" to be out there, so its programmed to automatically look for cloaked vessels if they are part of the scenario. Sadly, the odds always favor the house.
Devil's Advocate: Like I have stated before, I have run this particular mission, and set-ups like it in other episodes of my own design, many times and have had success. Granted, as a Romulan player in these scenarios the goal is to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible and then warp the hell out, only sticking around if the glory of the kill is to be had or if the attack succeeds in eliminating the primary tactical threat and there is a real probability to get another target or chase the opposition into retreat.
I also firmly believe that a cloaked vessel CANNOT BE FOUND if it stops moving. PERIOD! It cannot be locked onto, it cannot be shot at with any reasonable chance of success with direct fire weapons, and transfixing on the last possible coordinates is something that can only be done whilst playing RPG, regardless of what the actual game rules in the book says. It's one of the reasons we house ruled a few things, but even without the house rulings, I've never seen a cloaked ship be found as fast as the A.I. in the PC Sim finds them.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 26, 2018 15:10:11 GMT -7
The next battle in the White Flame book is the Klingon response to the V-6 incursion into Klingon territory. It features another anomaly in the Source Book writing that I'm sure will give purists fits... but I don't care. You'll see why in the aftermath.
THE HUNT
After learning of the intrusion of the Romulan cruiser into Klingon space, Admiral Klemm of the White Flame began to collect his divided resources for a return strike. He sent a message to the Klingon High Command that he planned to conduct a raid across the Neutral Zone. He sent the message as a formality. He intended to go regardless....
The White Flame attacker force consists of a D-10G (Gloryseeker, featuring the Admiral himself), an L-9B (Waraxe), a D-2B (Seeker), and what is supposed to be a replacement for the Bloodspiller D-7M lost in the previous mission, an L-42B frigate (Wings of Destruction) featuring a Klingon/Romulan fusion named Kvel. They enter the field from the upper right of the maps.
The defender in this scenario is a lone Z-1 Type 1. (The White Flame book calls it a Z-2 for some reason) It sets up anywhere on the second map, but I put it part way into the lower left corner opposite the Klingon entry point.
Victory was achieved by whomever held the field at the end.
Special Rules: The field is saturated with asteroids, 27 in all. Since the PC Sim can only program 10, I changed up the dispersal pattern. Additionally, I view any terrain incorporated into a scenario as intentionally meant to block both movement and line of sight (otherwise what's the point of having it?) so I clicked on those options in the game set up. Sadly, this didn't seem to entirely work. See Devil's Advocate for more.
Ships had the option of warping out to escape, however the map was a floating one (hurray!) so there was no escape for moving off the board. Sadly, the PC Sim also can't be set up to permit this, so the outcome will have to be weighed against that.
Needless to say, I ran the sim three times and my results were very similar in each attempt. Usually by turn three I had eliminated the D-2B destroyer, though in each case I was aiming to eliminate either the L-9B or the D-10G first. The first attempt saw the L-9B take a withering barrage from the Z-1, only to survive long enough to watch the D-2B get hammered into submission the very next phase. In attempts two and three, it was the D-10G that bore the brunt of the first volley. As I flanked past the wounded cheesie the D-2B would wander into the gun sights and eat lead, so to speak. Ideally, this worked into my favor. That D-2B is a nasty little ship to have buzzing around, especially in multi-ship engagements. Those four 10 point torpedoes sure do wreak havoc. Good thing it's a glass cannon though.
The L-42B, at least under A.I. control, does some weird stuff. It likes to cloak early, which takes it out of the fight for several turns. It will occasionally pop out of cloak to take a pot shot or two, usually with the torpedoes, but since it moves so slowly under cloak, it doesn't get into range quick enough to be accurate. If it would power into combat with the rest of its group, it would be far more effective. Then it could cloak at an opportune moment, especially when the rest of his unit engages the Z-1 in "melee", for lack of a better term.
Eventually, I was able to disable the first target and start in on which ever one was next. By that point though, the L-42B would finally arrive, making it difficult to stay focused on one target. Also by that point, the Romulan battleship has taken enough damage to consider retreat, which I did the first two times (simply hitting escape to end the game). The last attempt though, I wanted to see just how much damage I was dishing out, so I stuck around till I was incapacitated. The results were quite surprising.
Obviously the D-2B was gone, as was the D-10G. The L-9B however, was in far worse shape than I anticipated. It still had respectable crew left (about 80%), and its superstructure was beaten but not in rough shape (70%ish), but I had hammered the engines pretty good. It was down to about 53% power, which explains why it was only taking pot shots. I had also either damaged or destroyed several disruptors all around the ship. The L-42B never took any shots from me in any of the attempts. Usually it didn't get close enough to be a concern and the only time it did was the last attempt. Even then, I usually just parked on top of it to avoid getting shot while I maneuvered to take out the L-9B. By this point though, I need to point out that I was hurting pretty good and would have warped out the previous turn before my crew was liquidated. I was down to 9% crew as it was and my superstructure had 7 points left (I forgot the percentage, and if I wasn't being lazy I could calculate it). I still had enough power though to be effective (75%) but I was short two torpedoes and several disruptors at this point.
Aftermath: In all cases the Klingons could claim victory since they held the field, even though they lost two vessels in all three encounters. Granted, I don't see the Romulans sticking around for two long after neutralizing two Klingon ships.
Needless to say, the Z-1 Nova, even the Type 1, is not a ship to be trifled with. If it were a 3 to 1 battle, I would have to give it to the Z-1. She manages to mete out the damage, take a few hits, and keep coming. I've run it before with success in real time, but even here the Klingons would have to give it to her for being a worthy opponent. If the scenario was written with the Type 2, I think the Klingons would lose three ships for sure, and probably lose the whole group. If she had more power, say an extra 10 or 15 points (putting it around 85/90 points) she would be a real predator.
Devil's Advocate: The one thing that really bugs me is how the game uses terrain. I understand that there are limitations to what can/could be done with the program, but when you give the option to block movement and fire, they both should work. Sadly, this bit me in the ass in the first attempt (literally, the D-10G got nice clean shots at my aft arc one round because I though the asteroid would block LOS but it didn't). After a painful learning curve (I survived, somehow) I didn't make that mistake again, but in real time, where the asteroids WOULD have blocked LOS, this mission takes on a different tone. A good commander will be able to make use of such sight lines, maneuvering the Z-1 T1 to take advantage of it in order to isolate itself from random attack angles.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Oct 29, 2018 19:59:10 GMT -7
I have found, in all my years of playing STSTCS (and it's predecessor, the Star Trek III Starship Combat Roleplaying Game) that the most entertaining and rewarding battles have been with the scouts, escorts, and destroyers. The next mission in the White Flame book is one of those fights where the cruisers, frigates, and battleships are no where to be found.
STARTING OFF WITH A BANG The military buildup along the Klingon/Romulan border, just south of the Triangle, began to escalate. Both sides increased security around their borders and their convoys while each stepped up the number of attacks against their foe. Convoy duty became particularly hazardous as these became prime targets for attack.
The White Flame attack with the pair of D-18Bs (Hunter/Defender) while the Romulans are on the defensive, guarding a convoy of three Monarch freighters with a T-10 Type 2 Bright One Destroyer and a pair of CS-2 type 10 Graceful Flyers. The Monarchs are loaded, and one is supposedly loaded with munitions, which, if breached, will cause extra damage when the ship explodes. Even though this couldn't be produced in the PC Sim, I found out it wouldn't matter.
The Klingons win by eliminating freighters, though the table is a bit wonky.
1 freighter destroyed: Defeat 2 freighter destroyed: Minor Victory 3 freighter destroyed: Major Victory
The Klingons score no points for eliminating an escort vessel.
The defender is supposed to adjust the stats down one for every D-18 they eliminate.
I'll just open with the statement that this battle has never gone well for the Klingons, both in real time and in this experiment with the PC Sim. The Klingons really have to focus on eliminating the freighters in a timely fashion, and they have to concentrate heavy fire in order to blow through the shields of those Monarchs. 16 points on a shield for a freighter is damn near impenetrable for what amounts to "pop gun" disruptor blasts. Even with six shots each, the D-18Bs need to punch through and keep the hammer coming. The A.I. doesn't seem to remember that beam weapons can be powered up beyond 1 point, which is something that needs to be done in order to pound though thick shields without the torpedo crutch.
Granted, the bonus points help, but 24 points of damage from one ship, after taking away 16 points for the sheild, leaves two 4 point hits which, unless you're trying to liquefy crew, won't bring down those Monarchs fast enough before the escorting destroyer and scouts hone in on you.
And that brings up my opening statement. Like I said, I have always had the most enjoyment playing the smaller ships. Even though some may seem to be rather pathetic when compared to the mighty capital ships like frigates and cruisers, some of them are pocket nightmares when used properly.
The T-10 Type 2 has always been a favorite of mine. It looks cool and handles fantastic for a destroyer. It's fast, even under cloak, and can usually outflank most ships even with the cloak active. The single torpedo and four disruptors provide enough sting to seriously wound smaller craft and give bigger ones something to think about. In all three tries, the T-10 performed admirably. Being preoccupied with either the freighters or the two scouts that can't cloak, the D-18Bs never really honed in on the cloaked ship, almost forgetting it was there. Each time I managed to skulk past the Klingons and unleash holy hell into the posterior of the Klingon destroyers.
But I knew the T-10 is good for that. It was the performance of the CS-2 type 10s that really made the grade though. The first attempt I lost both to crew meltdown, but managed to take out one D-18B with them. That left the lone D-18B to either attack the convoy or defend itself against the T-10. Either way, it lost its life and I saved the convoy.
The second battle went flawlessly, and though two of the freighters took minor damage, I lost no convoy ships and eliminated both D-18Bs.
The last battle sim was much more like the second one, though one of my CS-2s took some heat. It was down some crew and engine power since the warp drive is in the front, but it still survived to fight another day. The Klingons however, found out it was a good day to die.... again.
Aftermath: While it would appear to be a fair fight, those two CS-2s are really diamonds in the rough. No, not the most powerful vessels, but they move very fast and can power up the two measly disruptors to near full power, and since they are fast enough to outflank just about everything, they really paid off.
Devil's Advocate: I really have nothing negative to say about this battle except that I intend to try it from the Klingon perspective on the PC Sim. I've done it in realtime, but even then it's hard to beat the Romulans since it's hard to focus on the freighters while keeping the escorts off your back.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 4, 2018 22:06:57 GMT -7
The next mission in the White Flame book is the one we started the thread with. Part of the section called Operation Eradicate, it is the first mission in that story arc. Called Scenario One: "A Romulan Surprise" it features the V-30 T2 against two D-10Gs and the L-9B. I ran the PC Sim a few times, but the results were fairly similar. I managed to eliminate either one of the D-10Gs or the L-9B outright and do enough damage to one of the other ships to force it out of the remaining scenarios before I lost the V-30.
I then went to the next scenario in the arc, which again heavily favors the Klingons, or so I thought.
SCENARIO TWO: "CAT AND MOUSE" The Steel Wing of the 123rd, commanded by a new squadron commander, Kvel sutai Urussig, experienced more trouble than the other wings. Penetrating deeper into Romulan space than anyone else, they found their prey, who promptly cloaked and disappeared.
The White Flame is the Attacker this round, consisting of the L-42B (Wings of Destruction), and the two venerable D-18Bs (Hunter/Defender) (those destroyers do seem to get a workout in this book, don't they?). In order to claim victory, they have to destroy the defenders within a certain time frame.
1 - 5 turns: Complete Victory 6 - 8 turns: Partial Victory 9 - 10 turns: Minor Victory 11+ turns: Total Defeat
The Defenders are two V-8 Type 4s. I named them Pheaton and Caligula, but they are unnamed in the book The defenders need to knock out a certain numerical value based on values assigned to the ships they face.
L-42B = 78 points D-18B = 12 points
1 to 23 points: Total Defeat 24 to 36 points: Minor Victory 37 to 59 points: Victory 60+: Complete Victory
The attackers can deploy anywhere along the right edge of the map, while the defenders can start cloaked and can be deployed anywhere on the map. I set up the Klingons in the upper right corner in an "hu toj maal" formation (inverted V). The Romulans were placed about a 1/3rd of the way up from the bottom and in from the left edge of the map and were cloaked.
I have to admit, I had my reservations about how well the Romulan's would do in this scenario, given that the L-42B is one of the more advanced vessels in the Klingon arsenal and the V-8 T2s are relics out of the rest home by this point. Additionally, it's a 3 on 2 dogfight with a Klingon/Romulan fusion in command who has apparently spent most of his career along the Romulan border, making him an expert in Romulan cloak tactics (this was supposedly represented in the game by giving him a bonus to detect cloaked ships, but that couldn't be done here).
Needless to say, thanks to the A.I. of the game, the L-42B was, once again, pretty much a non factor until the end or very near to it. Cloaking early, it pretty much takes forever to cross even the shortest distance. Granted, the V-8 T2s aren't speed demons under cloak but surprisingly they can still outpace the big Klingon frigate. This left finding and confronting the Romulans in the hands of the two destroyers.
The first couple attempts I was playing more aggressively than I needed to; actively looking for ways to get the big nugs (as Glenn would say) on a target and hope for the insta-kill. Needless to say, the tactic was only partially successful. I was able to get in fairly close to the D-18Bs on several occasions, but the lack of maneuverability cost me as they were usually able to outmaneuver at least one V-8 T2 and avoid eating two plasma bolts. Granted, one would do considerable damage, but rarely enough to snuff out a ship in one shot.
The next few attempts I played more conservatively and spread the two Romulan cruisers apart in order to cover each other better. This worked, but reduced the effective damage of the plasmas to the 20/24 point mark. It also meant that during a critical shot moment, I would miss I shot, and I missed. Then I had a popsicle.
I was able to take out at least one D-18B on each occasion to this point, but would ultimately lose my two ships by the 7th or 8th round. This time however, I managed to destroy both D-18Bs in fairly short order; around turn 6. Sadly, the loss of these two ships would only garner me a Minor Victory, whereas my destruction in turn 8 from the L-42B would still give the Klingons a Partial Victory.
The last two attempts were much more entertaining. Try #5 saw the loss of the two D-18Bs in turn 4, giving me lots of time to hunt down the L-42B with the two fairly fresh V-8s. I cloaked both and headed towards the last known location of the Klingon frigate, but I was having trouble finding it AND getting shots on it while it was cloaked. It was around turn 9 that I finally found it. It had missed us to the starboard side and was turning away when turn 10 started. That's where it all went wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.
What should have been a glorious kill turned into what we used to call a "dice smashing party". I had the frigate dead to rights with both plasma weapons in the choice 32 damage point kill zone with a 90% chance of hitting....
....AND I MISSED WITH BOTH SHOTS!....
Needless to say, the frigate unleashed holy hell on one of my V-8s with an aft torpedo barrage and the aft disruptors, then turned around and hammered it again with another round from the front torpedoes and a flurry of front disruptor fire from those triple banks. My one V-8 (the Pheaton, I believe) crumpled like a Coke can under a car tire and exploded, right next to the Caligula, which suffered massive crew damage and died in the same phase.
Needless to say I felt cheated. I called the game all sorts of names, some in English, some in French, and some in Klingon (I don't speak Romulan, though there were a few Russian insults thrown in for good measure, so that has to count for something). I also made up a few words that only Yosemite Sam and Fred Flinstone might have understood.
At any rate, I gave it one more try. This time I played my usual, patient, Romulan waiting game, knowing that the Klingons would have to find us in order to prevent the Romulans from showing up in the final act.
Turn 11 passed with very little fanfare as I sat cloaked, nearly motionless for 7 turns while the D-18Bs hunted for the Romulans with little success. Granted, I had parked one V-8 right under one of the destroyers and the other V-8 right next to it. The A.I. knew I wasn't moving since it stopped moving the destroyers as well. Every once in a while I would slip one of the V-8s a hex or two. Then the Klingons would move.
Eventually, around turn 15, I had an opportunity to get a few shots at one of the destroyers, but instead of using the plasma weapon, I charged up both disruptors on the the V-8s to about 4 or 5 power each and sat under cloak until I felt the time was right. I then decloaked and managed to hit the Defender at point blank range with all four disruptors into one shield. When the next phase hit and the Klingons responded, I recloaked, thwarting their ability to effectively hit me, if they even found me.
This tactic seemed to serve well for several turns after. I would sit and wait with those disruptors powered up, under cloak and motionless until someone wandered into sight. This caused enough damage to the Defender that it started to move away. The Hunter stopped moving completely, but it was parked on top of the Pheaton, which happened to be pointed at the fleeing Defender. The Caligula was over a bit, but pointed in the wrong direction.
Turn 23 gave me the opportunity to use the plasma weapon, and I unleashed it on the fleeing Defender at about the 24 point mark. At the same time, I decloaked the Caligula and hammered the Hunter with two high powered blasts from the disruptors. Now I probably should have used the disruptors on the Defender as well because the plasma weapon crushed the superstructure and caused the ship to go critical, puking 28 points of damage all over the Hunter and the Pheaton, which also exploded, taking out the Hunter. Fortunately, the Caligula was far enough away to survive the damage through shield protection and lucky hits that knocked out things like sensors, communications, and a shield generator or two. My crew managed to stay intact and I lost very little superstructure. Even the engines took little damage.
So now it was going to be a knife fight to the end between two cloaked ships. Oh yes, the L-42B hadn't been forgotten about, but it had done very little at this point. In fact, I think it was cloaked for almost the whole time. Granted, I had no idea where the hell it was either.
So I cloaked and made a guess as to where it would be, given the number of turns and the average speed of 3MP. I began scanning for it while I moved to where I thought it was. Once the numbers got easier though, I knew I was getting warmer. Eventually, I just stopped moving and decloaked, hoping to draw out the frigate for the final showdown. I powered up the plasma and both disruptors to three (they had both been damaged in the blast, so that was all I was going to get out of them) foregoing movement and putting the forward shield to 10.
The ploy worked, sort of. The Klingon frigate decloaked in front of me, but was out further than I had hoped. It was facing away from me, but not for long. It brought its bow to bear as I uncorked the plasma and the disruptors. I still did a fair amount of damage, but not enough to knock out the frigate. The plasma hit for 24 points and the two beams did an additional 5 each, but I later found out that the Klingon bird had full shields up in the front, which mitigated almost half of that damage. I on the other hand, ate both torpedoes but could only fend off one. The second tore through unfettered; so did the six disruptors that followed. The L-42B didn't need the aft weaponry. My luck had run out and my crew succumbed to the vacuum of space.
Aftermath: The Klingons still win the day, but the Romulans can really give the Klingon squadron fits if played and done right, however the absence of the L-42B for much of the battle is what will buy the Romulan time to get one of the destroyers, if not both. In real time, a good Klingon player would not cloak the L-42B so early; instead closing with the destroyers to at least get a few shots at the Romulans if and when they find them. Then, when the Romulans are close, then cloak and force the Romulans to play your cloak game.
Devil's Advocate: The L-42B is a fine ship, but it's just to slow to be effective while under cloak. When you have a deadline to meet, you need to close quickly in order to take advantage of your numerical superiority.
I've always had a love/hate relationship with the V-8. I love the way it looks, but they way it is statted out makes it difficult to play. As a strike and fade unit, it also isn't meant to go nose to nose with anything for very long. For something that was supposed to strike fear and terror into its opponent, the FASA version falls a little flat.
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Post by rabid on Nov 8, 2018 18:42:59 GMT -7
Keep these coming!!
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 13, 2018 0:46:02 GMT -7
The third episode in the Operation: Eradicate story arc features the Red Wing of the 123rd White Flame. Again, like the two previous episodes, it is a precursor to the final act.
SCENARIO THREE: PURSUIT
An easy assignment confronted the Red Wing of the White Flame. The only ships in their flightpath were two destroyers, and these were easy to destroy. The Romulans, of course, had another idea. Upon detecting the Klingons, the destroyer captain ordered the two vessels to retreat into a nearby asteroid belt. Though possessing the advantage of superior firepower, Kilt knew that eliminating the Romulan destroyers would waste valuable time, something the Klingons lacked.
The attacking force in this scenario is the Red Wing of the White Flame, which is made up of a D-7M (Deathmonger) and two D-2Bs (Seeker/Guardian)
The attackers enters the board on the left side of the map with all ships entering turn one.
The defending force consists of two T-10 Type 2 destroyers (they are unnamed in the book, but I named them the Reemea and the Corill).
They defenders can deploy anywhere on the map, uncloaked. (it doesn't state any more than that, so I figured after the first phase, they could cloak)
The map itself is once again riddled with asteroid markers, 26 in all. I could only use 10 though, so I changed the pattern to reflect the tightest part of the asteroid field.
Once again victory could be claimed by either side, even simultaneously, with the Attackers having to destroy both vessels within a certain allotted time frame and the Defenders claiming points by destroying attacking vessels.
Attacker Victory Table 1 to 4 turns: Complete Victory 5 to 6 turns: Victory 7 to 9 turns: Minor Victory 10+ turns: Defeat
Defender Victory Table 1 to 8 points: Total Defeat 9 to 16 points: Failure 17 to 20 points: Minor Victory 21 to 49 points: Major Victory 50+ points: Complete Victory
The Klingon ships were weighted as follows: D-7M: 36 points D-2B: 16 points
**Ships forced to warp out were worth half their value**
Let me start off by saying this particular mission was one of the most enjoyable I've done so far. The T-10 Type 2 is one of those FASA designs that just plays so very well for a destroyer and it looks oh so good doing so. It is by far one of my absolute favorites to play.
I ran the simulation several times, trying out different tactics with the paired destroyers, and each one met with a measure of success. In the first round, I split up the two destroyers and tried to outflank the inbound Klingons. This time, for some reason, the asteroids seem to provide great cover from the Klingon sensors since I was able to make it fairly far around the Klingons and hit them from the sides. The T-10 T2 moves very quickly under cloak, generally getting 8 movement points with one or two power left to spare. This provided me with enough juice to power up a shield enough to take the sting out of the paltry Klingon disruptors on those glass cannon D-2Bs, which are the only weapons they can fire broadside, or to power a shield to minimum and arm the torpedo. I was then able to decloak on an off turn, where the computer had decided not to fire, and pop one of the Klingon destroyers with the torpedo. I could then outmaneuver a destroyer and cloak again. I made several passes like this, from both sides, which seemed to frustrate and confuse the A.I. To be honest, the same "hit and run" tactic used to drive my real time players nuts too, especially if I would decloak one ship to fire, then cloak it the next phase when they turned to find it, only to have the second destroyer decloak and plant a torpedo in their side. This forced the Klingon ships to dance in circles, zigzagging back and forth trying to get their torpedo weapons to lock on the swift Romulan destroyers. At one point, I passed both destroyers right under the D-7M and swap flanks.
Once I had closed with the cruiser, I backed off far enough that the D-7M couldn't duck either destroyer's torpedo even though it would move after they did. I then decloaked one destroyer and uncorked the full four disruptors and the torpedo into the D-7M. The A.I. must not have found me on sensors since it didn't fire that turn. The D-2Bs were out of position to bring their torpedo barrage, so they didn't fire either. The next phase I pulled a feint with the uncloaked destroyer and pulled the D-7M right across the bow of the other T-10. I then cloaked the one ship as I decloaked the other. Once again, the D-7M had locked onto the wrong destroyer and though it could fire, it missed all but one disruptor, which my shields were able to hold off. The second T-10 pounded the broadside of the D-7M, doing considerable damage to the warp drive and crew, which was evident when the cruiser suddenly went from moving 8 MP normally to 5 in the next turn. The D-2Bs attempted to pulverize my cloaked T-10-2, but missed. Mwha ha ha ha.
Turn 7 saw the loss of the D-7M through crew meltdown and power attrition, and turn 9 saw the loss of one of the D-2Bs, though it cost me one of my T-10s, which exploded and crippled my other destroyer.
Turn 9: Minor Victory for the attacker D-7M + D-2B destroyed = 52 points: Complete Victory for the defenders.
The second go round I played my Romulan waiting game, using the asteroids again to hide from their sensors. This plan also seemed to work, and by turn 8 the Klingons had unwittingly wandered into a crossfire ambush. I decloaked both T-10s and raked the D-7M from both sides. I did a lot of damage, but didn't kill it. The next phase I cloaked, but the D-2Bs were close enough to hit me fairly effectively with their torpedoes. I lost one T-10 to crew attrition and the second one exploded, however it barfed all over the wounded D-7M, which in turn went into crew meltdown.
Turn 8: Minor Victory for the attacker. D-7M Destroyed = 36 points: Major Victory for the defenders
The next few go rounds went pretty much the same as the first two, with the turn and victory point count coming out pretty much the same. The last kick at the Klingon though was the coup de gras. Using the bait and switch tactic I left one destroyer out in the open at extreme range of the Klingon weapons, using full shields to thwart any real damage while the second destroyer did an end run from the opposite side under cloak. Through crew bonuses I occasionally got enough extra power points to actually get 9 Movement points while under cloak, which allowed me to really blow past the Klingons and get into great firing positions.
They seemed to focus on the uncloaked Romulan a lot. When they had begun to close the range I cloaked the decoy destroyer and then uncloaked the second destroyer and fired, dropping one of the D-2Bs dead in its tracks. This forced the D-7M and the other D-2B to turn around to respond. Since I had not powered any shields, only the cloak and the weapons, I still had enough movement to duck underneath the D-7M and still outflank the D-2B, which could only get its little pinger disruptors to lock on; he only hit with one.
Unable to find the second destroyer, the Klingons held station, looking to find it. This allowed me to decloak the decoy and open fire while the second destroyer moved away. I did considerable damage to the second D-2Bs engines and crew, which was good because I didn't want it to explode all over my partner.
I followed this tactic for a few more turns, dragging the Klingons across the map in pursuit of one of the destroyers while maneuvering the second for another pass. Turn 10 saw the demise of the second D-2B in spectacular fashion, sadly all over one of my T-10s, but it survived.
At this point I would like to point out that in the real world, the D-7M should have hunkered down into a defensive position and waited for someone to pop out of cloak, but the A.I. plays a little too aggressively, forgoing most of the shields for weapons and movement, so it was only a matter of time before it would meet it's fate and join the two destroyers it came with. By using one T-10 as bait, the second one could move into a flank position and drop a torpedo into the broadside of the cruiser, then recloak and slip away, drawing the D-7M with it, allowing the other Romulan destroyer a chance to do the same.
Mercy came around turn 15 when the D-7M finally succumbed to the numerous torpedo hits and exploded. Both my T-10s were in intact and in good shape.
Turn 15: Defeat for the attacker D-7M and both D-2Bs destroyed = 68 points: Complete Victory for the Defenders.
Aftermath: I've said it multiple times but I'll say it again: I LOVE THE T-10! Put two of them together and you have a great tag team. Even though the Klingons definitely had the superior firepower, individually they can't compete with this stunning Romulan design. I've used these ships against everything in the game; Larsons, Bakers, D-7s, D-10s, Gorn cruisers, you name it. Even made an Enterprise Mk-III run from the field (that folks, was a game!) The only ship that proves difficult to down is the Loknar, but that's another one of my all time favorites.
Devil's Advocate: I can't complain about the performance of the Romulan destroyers in this episode. Even in real time play, they have wreaked havoc against the Klingons, though granted, in those times, the Klingons have fared about the same as the first two attempts, usually losing only one ship. The limited capabilities of the PC Sim A.I. is the big down fall in this instance. Instead of being so aggressive, regular players, once they realize the tactics of the Romulan player(s), will generally go into a more defensive stance, sacrificing tactical movement for mutual protection and full shields. The Romulans have a much tougher go of it then since they will, eventually, have to expose themselves to return fire, and those torpedo boat destroyers and the heavy torpedo armament of the D-7M will break the backs of the somewhat fragile T-10.
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Post by walrusguy on Nov 13, 2018 7:41:18 GMT -7
Ya know, Swede - I may just have to hire you to play test some of our scenario book material. You do such an amazing job with your descriptions!
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 14, 2018 12:05:44 GMT -7
Ya know, Swede - I may just have to hire you to play test some of our scenario book material. You do such an amazing job with your descriptions! Seeing that I have a willing set of new (and a few returning) players, we would love to.
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 14, 2018 12:56:00 GMT -7
The climax of Operation: Eradicate features any surviving Klingon ships facing off against a lone X-3 Type 7. The PC Sim does not support the use of starbases or installations but I figured I could facsimile it in some way, especially since the human would be playing the station. So I built one in the ship editing program knowing that the firing arcs are different on starbases and installations. Though not entirely accurate, I decided to go with Arc 1 being Starboard, Arc 2 being represented by Port, and Arc 3 represented by aft firing weapons. Shields arcs remain the same between starbases and ships, but I have always found that starbases need a better shielding arrangement. More on that later. SCENARIO FOUR: DESTRUCTION OF OUTPOST 4In the book, both D-10Gs, the L-9B, both D-18Bs, a single D-2B, the D-7M and L-42B all survive to make the fight and show up on time, making it an 8 to 1. According to the special rules, any Klingon ship that was forced to withdraw during one of the previous three build up battles would not be allowed to enter this battle until later, around turns four to six. Additionally, only some of the damage from previous battles could be repaired. Since neither stipulation could be preprogrammed, I went with everyone coming in at the same time and at full strength. The Attacker enters the board from the upper left of the map, while the Romulan base is situated somewhere in the lower right quadrant. They included a planet in the map. I did too, but it really doesn't come into play. It's just set dressing. Victory goes to whomever holds the field. Sadly, the Romulans do not get any reinforcements. The first battle showed me a few things. First of all, the Romulan X-3 does not list an MPR. Granted, it's a starbase, so theoretically it shouldn't move from hex to hex, so no MPR makes sense, however I will point out that both the Federation Alamo and the Klingon Z-4 do list an MPR of 10/1. When I programmed the X-3 into the ship editor, I had to put an MPR into the program, so I went with the 10/1 based off of case law. In the first attempt however, I didn't use it. I let the station sit static; and the Klingons took full advantage of that. In the first few volleys, they managed to cripple the shield generator in that sector, then they just piled into the narrow gap of the arc and pummeled away. I managed to destroy two Klingon ships, the D-2B (Guardian) and one of the D-18Bs (Hunter), but the station just simply could not survive long enough to take out any more. The second attempt, I allowed the X-3 to rotate if needed, bringing either a fresh shield or weapons from another arc to bear on the Klingons. Again, the numbers game played into the Klingon's favor as I was only able to dispatch three ships before the station went down (all three destroyers). What did the station in was the loss of sensors...completely. They had taken so much damage that they became inoperative, leaving the Klingons free reign to pepper the station until submission. The third and fourth attempts pretty much mirrored the second attempt, with different Klingon ships going down at different times. Usually the D-2B would die first, but the second and third Klingon ships to submit would vary from time to time. I managed to destroy the lead D-10G (Gloryseeker, the one commanded by the Admiral) and the L-9B in the third attempt and took out one of the D-18Bs and the L-9B in the fourth. The fifth attempt I fared better, taking out four Klingon ships, however I will point out that two of those were when they had ventured too close to the X-3 and it erupted all over them with about 109 points of explosive damage, which pretty much vaporized them. The sixth attempt I got four ships before the starbase exploded, which in turn took out one more Klingon, bringing the death toll to five. This is where I called the simulation. Like in real time play, taking out a station requires a lot of firepower, but it isn't as difficult as it sounds. Aftermath: The mission went pretty much as I had anticipated, though the A.I. plays way too aggressively than it needs to. Generally, once real time players have reached an optimal distance from a starbase I have found that they won't close into torpedo range until they have done considerable damage to it first. Additionally, most fleets will concentrate every ship into one arc since most starbases are designed with enough power to charge up every weapon they have and most of the shields. Granted, this allows the starbase to power its beam weapons to full charge, but generally they only get four shots at that range; the torpedoes nullified by range. By rotating ships to the firing line, the fleet can outlast the starbase by quite a bit. Devil's Advocate: There is a reason permanent installations such as starbases and outposts have fleets assigned to them. If the Romulans were allowed to have any of the previous ships that survived the fight return to defend the station, the fight would be much different. I might program an additional simulation to represent a few Romulan ships returning to aid the station and see how that battle goes. It isn't a shortcoming of the PC Sim that makes starbases so vulnerable either. In the real time game, starbases are severely hampered by the limitations of their shield capabilities, much more so than the normal shortcoming of the game itself. For something that cannot rely on outmaneuvering an opponent, the shield characteristics should have been modified to accommodate that. In our real time games, the simplest solution was to allow any surplus power to be routed to an additional defensive barrier on a 1 to 1 basis. This would usually bolster the shields to well over 20 in any particular facing. While our house rule allowed this power to survive the first volley only (the reinforcement would not regenerate like shields do), it did provide enough protection to nullify most initial attacks and really gave the station much more survivability, making them much more dangerous to attack. It also changed the tactics of some attacking fleets. When a fleet would concentrate in one arc, the station could use power it would normally put into weapons in an un-faced arc into shield reinforcement. Sometimes, depending on the station type in question, that could be quite a bit. Split into two shield facings and being able to rotate would sometimes utterly nullify an attack all together. One example happened when I ran a campaign featuring a modern day (TMP era) Romulan War. The Romulans attacked a Mk-IV Alamo, concentrating an entire flotilla of 9 vessels in one arc. The Alamo was able to power up the two needed shields, all the phasers in that arc to maximum, both torpedoes, and three movement points; a cost of 108 power (6 phasers to 10, three MP at 10/1, 2 points for the torpedoes, and 16 points for two shields at 16 each, requiring 8 points per shield at 1/2). It used the remaining 96 points of power to reinforce both shields, putting 48 points to both, bringing them to a whopping 64 points to thwart the first volley. The Romulans either had to severely step up their beam power to maximum or close to torpedo distance, which would in turn make them vulnerable to the torpedoes of the station (all two of them per arc, which always seemed a little anemic to me) or divide up and attack in two arcs in order to force the station to spend more power to arm more weapons or spend more protecting itself. P.S. In case any of you were wondering, I did not intentionally leave out any mention of the L-42B. In every attempt, the ship never even came out of cloak. It was, for all intents and purposes, utterly useless and provided nothing in the way of anything. Stupid A.I.
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Post by tinker on Nov 15, 2018 6:00:57 GMT -7
First of all, the Romulan X-3 does not list an MPR. Granted, it's a starbase, so theoretically it shouldn't move from hex to hex, so no MPR makes sense, however I will point out that both the Federation Alamo and the Klingon Z-4 do list an MPR of 10/1. Yes, in the main rule book, it lists that outposts have a 10/1 MPR - so good call there on your part. This scenario (like so many others) reminds of why I dislike this book so much.
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Post by bazbaziah on Nov 15, 2018 11:40:42 GMT -7
First of all, the Romulan X-3 does not list an MPR. Granted, it's a starbase, so theoretically it shouldn't move from hex to hex, so no MPR makes sense, however I will point out that both the Federation Alamo and the Klingon Z-4 do list an MPR of 10/1. Yes, in the main rule book, it lists that outposts have a 10/1 MPR - so good call there on your part. This scenario (like so many others) reminds of why I dislike this book so much. I doubt the writers and designers of the game and supplements ever dreamed that a select group of avid fans would be still be picking over their work a few years after its publication, let alone 30+ years? What they produced in the early years of home micros is still testament to their desire to make a first class gaming system. It was only after about 7 years of playing the ship combat game to death that I stopped and thought about adding new stuff to the game! Jim
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 15, 2018 12:27:00 GMT -7
First of all, the Romulan X-3 does not list an MPR. Granted, it's a starbase, so theoretically it shouldn't move from hex to hex, so no MPR makes sense, however I will point out that both the Federation Alamo and the Klingon Z-4 do list an MPR of 10/1. Yes, in the main rule book, it lists that outposts have a 10/1 MPR - so good call there on your part. This scenario (like so many others) reminds of why I dislike this book so much. Well, my intent isn't to try and sway peoples opinion one way or another. I liked the book. Sure, there are some shortcomings, but the general lack of balanced forces wasn't one of the things I disliked. Playing the game from a more RPG bent, I rarely ever put much thought into balancing a given scenario. Even in Battletech, where we ran an ongoing campaign for over 4 years was there never a real balance between forces. Some like the book, some don't and I'm not really all that interested in the numbers.
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Post by rabid on Nov 18, 2018 20:06:43 GMT -7
I enjoyed this recap and I agree with you! The T-10 is easily underestimated and with a few lucky shots can take out a D2 very easily. That's what I loved about this scenario (T-10's vs D7M and D2b's), the tricky part for the romulans is not getting taken out at the same time.
I've played it your way before trying to set up an ambush, but I according to our old game logs (Yes I kept them) I got blasted both times we played this scenario because it's very tempting to go for broke.
(silly question if you are using the computer version how do you cloak your romulans? I can't find the button).
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 22, 2018 0:20:33 GMT -7
With the destruction of Outpost 4 signalling the end of Operation: Eradicate, the White Flame book moves on to another chapter in the story of the Klingon Flotilla.
HONOUR AMONG THEIVES
Space is vast. So vast that the odds of two starships meeting by chance within it are nearly impossible. Certain places, though, draw people, thus increasing the likelihood of contact. Trade routes draw people more than any other place, especially pirates. Space is still vast enough that even pirates rarely encounter one another, but when they do it's a no-holds barred kind of combat. This is probably because they know just how mean they are themselves. Honour among thieves is non-existant.
The Klingons are on the defense in this scenario, which features TWO attackers working independently of each other. A D-10G (Gloryseeker) and one of the D-2Bs (Guardian) are on convoy duty, protecting three loaded Monarch class freighters.
The attackers are two sets of Orion pirate bands, both sporting a Wanderer and a Lightning each.
Victory in this particular scenario is based on capturing or retaining a freighter, depending on which party you are referring to.
Klingons: Each freighter retreated off the map = 20 points Each freighter captured by someone else = -10 Each freighter destroyed = -5
Orions: Each Freighter captured = +10 Each freighter captured by someone else = -5
Capturing freighters was based off of a very simple points plus die roll system. Each ship had a certain number of marine points except the freighters, which had none. You beamed a number of points to a freighter and if you had more than an opponent, you controlled the freighter while the marines duked it out before each movement phase.
I also set up the battlefield with less than the listed number of asteroids and put the Klingons in the middle at the bottom of the map while the Orion start points were equal distant half way up along the edges.
When I ran this scenario, I put the freighters in with the Klingons to keep the them from firing on their own freighters when I was running one of the Orion groups, however I did control the freighters. I also ran this simulation from several angles to get a good cross section of results.
In the first run through I ran all the Klingon ships. It seemed the most logical place to start. Knowing that both Orion parties wanted the freighters and the PC Sim A.I. was just as likely to attack each other as it would the Klingons, I crept forward slowly, keeping the Klingon escorts close to the freighters. Sure enough, the Orions attacked each other first, ignoring the Klingons for the most part. The Wanderers almost annihilated each other, but guaranteed they always moved last. I love the Wanderer. It's probably one of the best designed vessels in the game.... except for those low power shields. Both Lightnings actually came to inspect and attack the Klingons, which proved pointless. The D-2B dispatched one while the D-10G eliminated the other. When the Wanderers had had enough of beating on each other, they turned on the Klingons, but by that point they were easy prey. The freighters never took any damage and the Klingon warships were unscathed.
The second time around I took one of the Orion groups, but maintained control of the freighters so they wouldn't do anything dumb, like loiter around to be shot at. Again, I could have taken the easy road and let the Klingons and the other pirates tear into each other, but I decided to go full pirate and went straight for the freighters. The Wanderer was the star of the assault. It whipped past the D-10G like it was standing still and managed to hit it from behind with the aft torpedoes. This utterly wrecked the D-10Gs engineering section, forcing it to limp forward for some time before it regained its maneuverability and weapons grids. This allowed the other pirate Wanderer to rip into it, which in turn allowed me to eliminate its compatriot Lightning. In the mean time, my own Lightning was having fun with the D-2B, pelting it with four disruptor blasts from the side most of the time. Eventually the little glass cannon would wither and die, allowing me free reign with the freighters.
Later on, it was a duel between Wanderers. The enemy Wanderer managed to dispatch the D-10G, but once the big Klingon cruiser had regained control of its weapons and movement, it did a fair bit of damage. When it erupted all over the Wanderer, it only sealed the deal for me to pick it off.
I tried something different for the third try. I took control of the freighters, but let the A.I. do all the fighting. Admittedly, this was REALLY boring to play, but it was entertaining to watch. I've said it before, but after what I witnessed it bears repeating again. The PC Sim A.I. is really, really odd. The Klingons split up, attacking both Orion parties at the same time. In the mean time, the Orions also split up to attack the Klingons and each other.
The freighters are slow, but can manage about 4 to 5 MP depending on crew bonuses, so they always moved first, but I played them much more cautious, moving only 2 MP a turn while the battle capable ships usually were going 6 to 9. This meant that the furball that erupted somewhere in the middle of the field happened well before the freighters actually got there. Moving this slow also freed up vital power to put up several shields to a good power level or two at full power; which thwarted most attacks when they did come my way.
I also turned to starboard and started to go around the melee, keeping as far away as I could and still move forward. When all was said and done, the freighters were the only things left on the board; the last two ships mutually extinguishing the other.
I repeated the second attempt for the last try, changing my personal tactics and this time including the possibility of capturing freighters. If I wandered close enough to a freighter, I considered it captured and steered it towards my edge. If a Klingon ship passed by after that, they regained control. It was a little harder to do with the enemy pirates since they would usually shoot the freighter if they got to close, but I gave it to them anyway. If they blew it up while under their "control", that was their problem.
Aftermath: This mission was a lot of fun from all angles. I really liked the idea though that they wrote up a three way battle. Most of the time, wargames feature two sides against each other. When you involve three or more parties though, the objectives of each group can be quite different, thus the strategy and tactics each group use will also be quite different. In this particular case, waiting too long will see the freighters escape. Too aggressive in capturing a ship could leave you open for attack. Go in guns blazing and you may not have anything left to capture ships with.
I've played other TableTop wargames in this manner. In fact, I prefer having three or more opponents on the same field as opposed to a one on one confrontation. Sure, it may not seem very realistic, but it is far, far more entertaining.
Devil's Advocate: Convoy missions always seem to be disliked. I know in Battletech, several of my players LOATHE them, mostly because whatever you are trying to protect usually gets shot to pieces, but in reality convoy missions are one of the more common types.
As a side note, we've run this particular one (and ones like it) in real time quite a bit, though we changed the rules for boarding to a different system that utilized the actual crew (and marine numbers, if a ship carried them) during boarding attacks. That system also included casualty calculations and made capturing a ship much more difficult than the simple, abstract system provided in this particular scenario.
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Post by trynda1701 on Nov 22, 2018 5:19:46 GMT -7
Another interesting AAR, swede. Thanks for posting. I'd like to see what rules you came up with for regarding boarding combats and capturing freighters when you ran your real time convoy games. Just before our gaming group went their separate ways, we were planning to run a pirate scenario as our third campaign. We were thinking of using a simple trading system along the lines of the Elite computer game, and were thinking about more detailed capture rules. Our first thought was a simple system like a table, which I think is what may be used in the SFB Cadet Training Manual? I don't have that book to hand. But I'd like to see your thoughts on this.
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Post by bazbaziah on Nov 22, 2018 12:26:59 GMT -7
Me too. My group had some boarding rules that have been lost to history, From what I remember we had a number of security units that you split between critical locations like engineering, bridge, fire con etc. And the enemy launched hit and run raids when they could get through a downed shield. Was more technical than this but you can get the idea.
Jim
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Post by thescreamingswede on Nov 28, 2018 0:52:24 GMT -7
The next two missions have the 123rd facing off against the Imperial Klingon States, the renegade splinter group in The Triangle who claim to be the true Klingon Empire in exile. The first mission, called Betrayal, has a parameter that I haven't quite figured out how to do. One of the 123rd ships has an officer who plans to defect to the I.K.S. and take the ship he serves on with him. During the beginning of any turn, the attacking force may claim the vessel and use it against the defenders; the rest of the 123rd squadron accompanying it.
Obviously this twist is supposed to have an element of surprise as well as tip the scales in the defector's favor, at least for a short while, but seems rather difficult to mimic in the PC Sim, so I skipped it and went to the next mission in the book, which is the retaliation for the attempted defection.
SPEEDY RESPONSE
Kuge vestai Reshtarc was an ambitious man, even for a Klingon. Constantly searching for that one big combat, a glorious fight raising him far beyond his peers, he sought the greatest command. Ambitious men become great men, but they often bring destruction and death to their comrades.
The defending forces consist of four D-7A cruisers and two K-23D escorts. They are in orbit around a planet in the upper right quadrant of the maps.
The attacking force is an ad-hoc group made up of two D-7Ms (Bloodspiller/Deathmonger), one of the D-2Bs (Guardian) and one of the D-18Bs (Hunter) [It's at this point I will bring into focus the biggest error in the book. As some may recall, Kuge and his ship, the Deathmonger, was supposedly destroyed by the Romulan V-6 cruiser Ramelia several mission ago, a combat that sparked the Operation: Eradicate story arc. It's even mentioned in the preamble that Kuge felt he was being penalized for this particular attack. Regardless of this particular continuity error, I played the mission as written.
Victory for the attacker stems from the level of damage done to the planet surface.
80+ = Complete Victory 50 - 79 = Major Victory 20 - 49 = Victory, but a poor showing proving little. 10 - 19 = Loss 9 or less = Complete failure. Courtmartial awaits.
Damage was tallied on a hit/miss basis. Each hit was worth full damage of the particular weapon. A miss was worth half.
For every attacker destroyed, subtract 15 points from the attackers damage to the planet.
This particular scenario also had a hard cap of six full turns. On the seventh turn I.K.S. reinforcements were to arrive, enough to thwart the assault by the 123rd group.
Due to the previous scenario, the captain of the Bloodspiller (Captain Kilt) was suffering the ill effects of the melee combat needed to retake his ship, so his Captain's Skill Rating was penalized, restricted to 60.
In order to make this scenario work, I needed to program something that I could use as a target for the planet, so I devised a simple one in the ship editor. At first I gave it 80 points of Superstructure and one point of power since I didn't want the planet to "explode", but after the first dry run I realized that the target marker would become inactive the moment it lost engine power, so I revised it with 80 power points as well. It had no weapons to detract from the damage tally, and the shields were kept to a minimum. It wasn't perfect, but it worked for what I needed it to.
Needless to say, I took the side of the 123rd for my first official attempt. While the numerical odds are in the I.K.S. favor, the old D-7As are not really a match for the M, even at two to one. I advanced the Bloodspiller and the Deathmonger side by side, using the six disruptors from the Hunter as cover fire. I skirted the Guardian around the flank as quick as it could go, which didn't leave a lot for firepower or substantial shielding. Needless to say, the main I.K.S. battlegroup took a few token shots at it, but did minimal damage as it swept past them.
As I closed I kept the D-7Ms and the D-18B moving slowly, with solid shield protection and the disruptors powered to something more than one or two. Closing in this manner allowed me to put some serious hurt on several of the D-7As. Once we got fairly close though, the speed went up and the dogfight began.
I like to use mostly flanking shots during my fights since outmaneuvering the enemy really helps improve survivability. Since none of the I.K.S. ships carried torpedo weapons though, this wasn't as pertinent, however I was trying to avoid having one ship ganged up on with concentrated fire from four to six ships.
Using the D-7Ms as the primary attack units kept most of the I.K.S. flotilla busy, enough so that the D-2B managed to make it to planetary orbit and start blasting the planet/target. The A.I. also seemed to ignore the D-18B since I left it back a bit to cover the D-7Ms. The tactic worked well, and I managed to silence one of the D-7As early. A K-23D fell shortly thereafter in a rather stunning eruption...all over several of his comrades.
Once the A.I. "realized" what the D-2B was doing, it turned one of the D-7As to intercept it. Leaving a flank exposed I hammered into the aft arc as it sped towards the planet. It eventually capitulated to engine damage. Then the surviving K-23D tried the same thing. It too fell after the D-18B suddenly leapt forward and tore into it with its six disruptors.
Once I had done the recommended amount of damage to the target (I just took it on liberty that it was 80 points after two full volleys of torpedoes from the D-2B impacted on the target marker without missing) the D-2B turned to leave, going through the third D-7A in the process.
The last D-7A, which had taken a considerable amount of damage to the engineering section, had only 17% crew and about 5% power left, so it kind of just sat there, wallowing in self pity as my intact flotilla sped from the planet in retreat. I couldn't kill the silly thing since turn six had arrived and I needed to get the hell out of Dodge before the cavalry showed up, but needless to say the I.K.S. took a serious beating, losing five out of six ships and a considerable amount of casualties on the planet surface.
The second run through, I took the I.K.S. side, expecting to get seriously spanked. The outcome was less than the routing that I had gave the I.K.S. In fact, it was a tough battle that saw the I.K.S. win the day.
I tried to keep the four D-7As in a tight formation, using the K-23Ds as cover fire and as a secondary line should one of the 123rd ships get past the first wave. Sadly, my bad luck saw one of the K-23Ds die early due to crew liquidation. This left a gap in my defense, however it turned out to be a good thing.
The 123rd decided that was were they would attack, and it drew them right across the four D-7As firing line. The D-2B died first, of course, but I also did considerable damage the next turn to the Deathmonger. Turn four I rushed the D-18B with all four D-7As and snuffed it out as well. This allowed the two D-7Ms to get through, but it also allowed me to get behind them and pepper the aft arc enough to stall the advance of the Bloodspiller with all three power grids going down at the same time. The Deathmonger managed to make it into orbit and began peppering the planet, but with two ships already lost, it was going to need at least two turns to make up the points.
They never got the chance though. The Bloodspiller managed to get the maneuver and weapons grids back on line in time to turn and try to flee. the Deathmonger needed to change focus and go after the D-7A that had pulled along side and was raking it from the rear. Eventually the Bloodspiller would suffer a catastrophic structural collapse, however the explosion was muted due to the loss of all power in the same turn. Turn six would end with the Deathmonger's crew dying in the cold vacuum of space.
Aftermath: I like battles where the focus is on an objective rather than just blasting the shit out of each other. By having to reach the planet, do damage, and get out, the attacking force need not meet the enemy head on. It could be possible to do considerable damage to the planet from long range, using the range of the KD-8s carried by the D-7Ms. Even if they "miss", they still get a minimum of 1 point of damage (1 power point plus the 1+ mod for the 16-20 hex range bracket, divided by 2 for any "missed" shot) per disruptor. Even the D-18B can be effective. Granted, it would take a lot longer than 6 turns to reach 80 points in this manner, so closing to torpedo range would be a good idea. Ultimately though, objective based battles create a need for an actual battle plan that goes beyond the "point and shoot".
Devil's Advocate: As in the real time playings of this scenario, I've seen this one go both ways, with wins for both sides being about equal, though admittedly it has shown to me the difference in depth of tactical understanding my various players have had over the years. The A.I. of the PC Sim does have rudimentary tactical skill, if you can call it that, but its primary focus is always to engage the enemy. In defense of the planet/target it worked fine, but as the aggressor who's mission is to hit the planet, it fell short.
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