|
|
Post by cowboy40 on Nov 9, 2018 9:35:33 GMT -7
As a child, back in 1978, an event occurred that has shaped my opinion of socialism. Of course I didn’t realize that at the time. So let’s gather around and I will share a story with you.
One day in November, I was watching the NBC News, I know it was NBC, because that is all my Grandmother would watch for her news at the time. I remember seeing this view of a news clip obviously taken from the air as a helicopter circled something. That something was a tin roofed building in what seemed to be a very nice kept company style farm. But as the picture got closer there was something that looked like colored paper strewn across the ground, and well that something turned out to be the remains of nearly one thousand people.
That vison from the news clip made an impression on me in later years. I wanted to know what happen there in this place called Jonestown. Guyana on November 18, 1978.
Jonestown was officially known as the People’s Temple Agricultural Project. The project was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everything was equal and fair, and everyone owned everything, but in reality It was the last gasp of what I would learn of a socialist movement that got its start from a Pentecostal church located in Indianapolis, founded in the 1950’s by the Reverend Jim Jones. Jones, and his church, The People’s Temple, were controversial in those days as well, because they were one of the first to practice integrated services. These church policies would eventually force the group to relocate to northern California. Here in this “liberal hot bed” the church would flourish and grow to thousands of members. By the late 1970’s, there were People Temples in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. The church would have a reputation for taking care of its own, and others. They had very good “social” programs like rest homes for the elderly and a home for mentally disabled children. Members would have all their medical needs met and the like, but this all would come at a price.
As the church grew in these cities, so did the prestige of Jones. He would become very influential in the politics of the time, and eventually be the president of the housing commission in San Francisco. He would use these new political connections to help cover up what that price was for the members of his congregations, but like all large organizations, there were disgruntled and disenfranchised “defectors” from the church that started to tale the world the true story behind Jones and his power base. These former members told of horrific beatings during services, sexual assaults by Jones, and even stories of death threats and even actual murders that were covered up by the church under the protection of Jones’s political allies. The members told stories of how they were forced to give up all their property and earnings to the church and how those that worked for the church were no more than slave labor working sixteen hour days. These members would eventually share their stories with a magazine and a local San Francisco newspaper. These ex-members were eventually joined in telling stories of the church by relatives of other members and the whole would become known as the “concerned relatives”. This group would eventually take their concerns to the one man that would lesson to them and promise to see what was going on.
Because of all the controversy surrounding the People’s Temple, Jones relocated him and the church staff to Jonestown, deep in the jungle, away from the prying eyes of the media, concerned relatives, and the now federal investigations looking into social security fraud inside the church. The church was also looked into about the claims of sexual and physical abuse, but the San Francisco DA’s office said they had a lack of evidence because active members of the church wouldn’t talk to them.
But eventually even more rumors and contacts were coming out of Jonestown. Claims of it being an armed camp where the members had no ability to leave if they wanted. Stories of severe punishments for those who even talked about the camp rules and those who gave indications of wanting to return to the US. The stories of how guns were being shipped to Jonestown in crates that were stinceled with the word Bibles on them. These rumors, allegations and concerns would eventually lead to a congressional fact finding mission headed by San Francisco Rep. Leo Ryan.
Ryan’s visit was the catalyst that broke Jones. When Ryan agreed to take out those members that wanted to leave Jonestown, Jim Jones felt betrayed, and he ordered the deaths of the defectors and the congressman. After the attack at the airfield that killed Ryan and four others that also left ten wounded Jones called his remaining flock together and well what else can I say….They took the purple Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide and 909 other people died that bad day. 300 of those were children that were murdered by Jones and their own parents. This is still the largest case of mass suicide in modern history.
This is the argument I have against “socialism” and groups who want to practice it. There is always going to be what George Orwell warned us about in “Animal Farm”. There is going to that one pig in the barnyard that is more equal than the others, and this power is going to lead to another Jonestown. Unfortunately this is human nature. History is full of absolute power corrupting people absolutely.
It is irony that Jones had a sign over his “throne” that read, “Those who don’t remember the past are destined to repeat the past…” As we approach the 40th anniversary of this terrible day, please let us remember that warning!
|
|
|
|
Post by edgeworthy on Nov 9, 2018 16:24:17 GMT -7
As a child, back in 1978, an event occurred that has shaped my opinion of socialism. Of course I didn’t realize that at the time. So let’s gather around and I will share a story with you. One day in November, I was watching the NBC News, I know it was NBC, because that is all my Grandmother would watch for her news at the time. I remember seeing this view of a news clip obviously taken from the air as a helicopter circled something. That something was a tin roofed building in what seemed to be a very nice kept company style farm. But as the picture got closer there was something that looked like colored paper strewn across the ground, and well that something turned out to be the remains of nearly one thousand people. That vison from the news clip made an impression on me in later years. I wanted to know what happen there in this place called Jonestown. Guyana on November 18, 1978. Jonestown was officially known as the People’s Temple Agricultural Project. The project was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everything was equal and fair, and everyone owned everything, but in reality It was the last gasp of what I would learn of a socialist movement that got its start from a Pentecostal church located in Indianapolis, founded in the 1950’s by the Reverend Jim Jones. Jones, and his church, The People’s Temple, were controversial in those days as well, because they were one of the first to practice integrated services. These church policies would eventually force the group to relocate to northern California. Here in this “liberal hot bed” the church would flourish and grow to thousands of members. By the late 1970’s, there were People Temples in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. The church would have a reputation for taking care of its own, and others. They had very good “social” programs like rest homes for the elderly and a home for mentally disabled children. Members would have all their medical needs met and the like, but this all would come at a price. As the church grew in these cities, so did the prestige of Jones. He would become very influential in the politics of the time, and eventually be the president of the housing commission in San Francisco. He would use these new political connections to help cover up what that price was for the members of his congregations, but like all large organizations, there were disgruntled and disenfranchised “defectors” from the church that started to tale the world the true story behind Jones and his power base. These former members told of horrific beatings during services, sexual assaults by Jones, and even stories of death threats and even actual murders that were covered up by the church under the protection of Jones’s political allies. The members told stories of how they were forced to give up all their property and earnings to the church and how those that worked for the church were no more than slave labor working sixteen hour days. These members would eventually share their stories with a magazine and a local San Francisco newspaper. These ex-members were eventually joined in telling stories of the church by relatives of other members and the whole would become known as the “concerned relatives”. This group would eventually take their concerns to the one man that would lesson to them and promise to see what was going on. Because of all the controversy surrounding the People’s Temple, Jones relocated him and the church staff to Jonestown, deep in the jungle, away from the prying eyes of the media, concerned relatives, and the now federal investigations looking into social security fraud inside the church. The church was also looked into about the claims of sexual and physical abuse, but the San Francisco DA’s office said they had a lack of evidence because active members of the church wouldn’t talk to them. But eventually even more rumors and contacts were coming out of Jonestown. Claims of it being an armed camp where the members had no ability to leave if they wanted. Stories of severe punishments for those who even talked about the camp rules and those who gave indications of wanting to return to the US. The stories of how guns were being shipped to Jonestown in crates that were stinceled with the word Bibles on them. These rumors, allegations and concerns would eventually lead to a congressional fact finding mission headed by San Francisco Rep. Leo Ryan. Ryan’s visit was the catalyst that broke Jones. When Ryan agreed to take out those members that wanted to leave Jonestown, Jim Jones felt betrayed, and he ordered the deaths of the defectors and the congressman. After the attack at the airfield that killed Ryan and four others that also left ten wounded Jones called his remaining flock together and well what else can I say….They took the purple Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide and 909 other people died that bad day. 300 of those were children that were murdered by Jones and their own parents. This is still the largest case of mass suicide in modern history. This is the argument I have against “socialism” and groups who want to practice it. There is always going to be what George Orwell warned us about in “Animal Farm”. There is going to that one pig in the barnyard that is more equal than the others, and this power is going to lead to another Jonestown. Unfortunately this is human nature. History is full of absolute power corrupting people absolutely. It is irony that Jones had a sign over his “throne” that read, “Those who don’t remember the past are destined to repeat the past…” As we approach the 40th anniversary of this terrible day, please let us remember that warning! You just illustrated the fatal flaw in Religion not Political Philosophy! |
|
|
|
Post by cowboy40 on Nov 9, 2018 17:09:56 GMT -7
No, Jones, during the 1970's, his message changed from a Christ based church to the People's Temple becoming a Socialist Activist organization. He referred to themselves as communists in many of his speeches. I won't call them sermons. You can start tracking this switch from Christianity to communist. There is a filmed speech that he delivered in the Los Angeles temple where he makes it plain and clear the direction of socialism and his identify as becoming communists.
What i pointed out is the human nature of becoming so blinded and controlled by ideology rather political or religious. Either way the ideas of socialism will not work, simply because of human nature...Orwell made the point better then i ever could....There will always be that one pig that is more equal then the other...rather it be Jim Jones or Joe Stalin.
|
|
|
|
Post by starcruiser on Nov 9, 2018 20:16:14 GMT -7
Communism DOES work - on a very small scale. It's basically the economic system of simple tribal cultures. Even there, the "chief" always gets a bit more than anyone else - as it always works into some kind of autocratic system.
On the large scale - corruption, corruption, corruption... Its inherent Achilles Heal...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 8:01:00 GMT -7
I dunno, starcruiser. Communism tends to break down at populations greater then one. Tribes seem more like socialist societies where the group shared necessities but individuals could own property and even businesses, and large scale works (like hunting mammoths or building a highway system) were accomplished by the collective for the common benefit. |
|
|
|
Post by trynda1701 on Nov 10, 2018 8:45:44 GMT -7
On the large scale - corruption, corruption, corruption... Its inherent Achilles Heal... Isn't that humanitys' inherent flaw?  |
|
|
|
Post by starcruiser on Nov 10, 2018 9:07:32 GMT -7
^ And therefore, the hopelessness of the idea of Communism!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 14:13:45 GMT -7
On the large scale - corruption, corruption, corruption... Its inherent Achilles Heal... Isn't that humanitys' inherent flaw? Yyyyupp! |
|
|
|
Post by rabid on Nov 10, 2018 17:49:22 GMT -7
Communism DOES work - on a very small scale. It's basically the economic system of simple tribal cultures. Even there, the "chief" always gets a bit more than anyone else - as it always works into some kind of autocratic system. On the large scale - corruption, corruption, corruption... Its inherent Achilles Heal... If production and distribution are completely automated, and the means of distribution is mathematically configured without the potential input of human greed, then yes, communism could work. But then it would immediately fall apart when those people have to figure out what to do with themselves. They either rut like minks and overwhelm the resources or they go violent or insane out of boredom. Communism has a record of failure so complete only an intellectual could advocate for it. Besides freedom from want is debilitating to the human spirit. For that reason alone the aims of communism are perverse. More topically the Jonestown story has always bothered me. From what I understand Jones' guards were going to shoot anyone who didn't drink the kool aid and they forcibly injected anyone who tried to resist. The audio is one of the most disturbing things I've ever heard. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 18:26:20 GMT -7
There's audio from Jonestown!?
Dang...
As I have mentioned, I have a arm's-length interest in Religion. The Christian Bible has a lot of passages that actually seem aimed at keeping the reader out of trouble.
Here are a couple that seem to shout warnings about Jones (et al...)
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
"And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray"
"And in their greed they will exploit you with false words"
Obvious to us, but for the less worldly people of antiquity, maybe not so much. Certainly lost on people who died only four decades ago. Interesting how little the human condition has changed over the millennia.
|
|
|
|
Post by cowboy40 on Nov 10, 2018 20:24:26 GMT -7
Communism DOES work - on a very small scale. It's basically the economic system of simple tribal cultures. Even there, the "chief" always gets a bit more than anyone else - as it always works into some kind of autocratic system. On the large scale - corruption, corruption, corruption... Its inherent Achilles Heal... If production and distribution are completely automated, and the means of distribution is mathematically configured without the potential input of human greed, then yes, communism could work. But then it would immediately fall apart when those people have to figure out what to do with themselves. They either rut like minks and overwhelm the resources or they go violent or insane out of boredom. Communism has a record of failure so complete only an intellectual could advocate for it. Besides freedom from want is debilitating to the human spirit. For that reason alone the aims of communism are perverse. More topically the Jonestown story has always bothered me. From what I understand Jones' guards were going to shoot anyone who didn't drink the kool aid and they forcibly injected anyone who tried to resist. The audio is one of the most disturbing things I've ever heard. The audio doesn't disturb me, as much as it scares the shit out of me....i am frightened on how easily in this day and age of so called social justice...that it can and probably will repeat itself!!!! |
|
|
|
Post by cowboy40 on Nov 10, 2018 20:30:46 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by rabid on Nov 10, 2018 23:53:33 GMT -7
Cowboy it ain't for the faint of heart. Of course he recorded it, he was a megalomaniac if not a schizo. In the end, to your point, jones served the Kool-Aid but he didn't drink it himself. He was either killed or shot himself. His son said something, like jones couldn't die the same way everyone else did. This is also another reason communism is bullshit (a singularly offensive pejorative, I know). Communist administrators never live like the common man.
cowboy40 you nailed it.
After Lenin, the "man of the people" deposed the Tsar, where do you think he decided to live? If anyone still believes in socialism then google that. More on this at the very end. But if the west falls to communism/socialism, I promise I will be the ABSOLUTELY BEST party man you have ever seen. It's the only way to be rich after all. There's still capitalism, but the capital has just changed from what you earn to how much party doctrine you can spout. www.amazon.com/Whisperers-Private-Life-Stalins-Russia/dp/0312428030
@ironnerd the bible is also full of passages that emphasize wisdom and thinking for yourself. Things of this earth we aren't supposed to delve into too deeply (it's temporary). As such we don't follow "men".
While it's undeniable that cults spring from religion, the problem is actually much deeper than that. The really haunting question is "What do religious and secular dictatorships have in common?". If only dumping religion would solve the problem but that's wishful thinking.
Do you know Jordan peterson? Not a big fan but this exchange between him and Sam Harris is relevant, if you watch the first few minutes of it. he manages to make Sam Harris look like a dope for his singular obsession with religion.
In Harris's eyes, no oppressive regime is as deleterious as that of religious ones, even when presented with direct contrary evidence he won't let go of it and consider the question Peterson is really asking him. I'm referencing it for the argument that begins right after Harris's introduction.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jey_CzIOfYE
A quick example---Sam Harris says that religions have belief in the irrational as a "feature" rather than a bug it would be anywhere else. Secular regimes at least don't have this (as to why it's nominally better to be massacred by Pol Pot instead of Jones, well...Sam harris hasn't thought of that I guess.). He says that religion requires people to believe things without question that rational people would reject. Fair enough.
But what better example than Jonestown to illustrate the problem, since it combines socialism with religion?
The problem is that secular 'cults', for example facism, also require dogmatic faith without evidence. I.e. the superiority of aryan blood, or that Joseph Stalin is actually there for you, bro. Jordan tries to point this out but Harris won't go there. Religion is the worst bogeyman.
It would be more informative to discuss what they have in common. I think there are 3 basic things that Secular regimes/cults of personality share in common with religious cults:
Dogmatism: Don't question orthodoxy.
Charismatic: We are the people of destiny in a time of need.
Rhetorical: Internally consistent logic. We are doing "X" to achieve "Y".
That's just my take on it. Unless people have a strong background and moral grounding, a strong sense of innate self and the rights of others, then it's entirely too easy to be taken in, it probably snuck up on them. Then suddenly the Kool-Aid is going around, maybe someone was asking themselves "How the fuck did it come to this?". In a situation like that, where people don't allow questions into what's going on, there's maybe 3 choices. Leave if possible, get killed willingly or by resisting, or buy in completely and be the one pulling the trigger.
That's why it disturbs me. ] It's like an old internet joke I saw once...a kid is sitting on his grandmother's lap and asks her to tell him a scary story. She says "my love, People can convince themselves of anything, no matter how bloody, how inhumane or murderous, no matter how wrong it is." |
|
|
|
Post by starcruiser on Nov 11, 2018 9:54:09 GMT -7
A return to "Classical Education" might help.
Most people have never even heard of Aristotle, or Plato. Far too many don't try to learn more than one language.
Religion is not REQUIRED in order to be stable and morally responsible human beings. A solid education goes a long way to providing all of the essentials - including those you might not get from your parents, neighbors and religious leaders.
In the US - we have a serious mish-mash of ideas concerning education and it seems to me that we are going backwards in some areas. I was fortunate that my small town school system had some exceptional teachers (for a small Texas town of about 2000 - with 20,000 head of cattle and so on). My High School English teacher also taught German, and Biology. We had a VERY enthusiastic Science teacher who handled Physics and Chemistry. One of our sports coaches was actually a very sharp Science teacher (introductory class) and we had a Computer Science class with a veteran (retired) Computer Engineer.
The hyper-religious types did exist in town, naturally but, they didn't go around protesting the teaching of science in schools. The "Moral Majority" idiots didn't come about until after I graduated and then we had them - and their followers - complaining about Darwinism, Sex Education and so on and so forth...
Understanding our past, the paths we - as a species - have taken to get where we are and the risks entailed in continuing down the wrong path, could go a long way to resolving so much of what's gone haywire with the world in recent times. I'm not saying that the world hasn't always been "f'ed up" - it has since the dawn of civilization itself. In some ways it's been getting better but, we still have maniacs taking over countries and lunatics with guns murdering people just because they can.
Mental healthcare in the US has been a painful joke for quite some time now, and that, along with many other serious shortcomings in our current system is part of that problem. Lack of political will to change what's wrong (in some cases, because of cost; in others because it's useful to complain about during campaigns) can be viewed as coming from lack of a full understanding of consequences and that, in turn, comes down to an uneven education in philosophy and science - along with basic and honest morality.
I don't know if the current mess in the USA can be fixed through simply "voting the bums out" since we are still stuck with a two-party system (there being no viable third party right now). I shudder to think what may happen if we continue to get more and more divided between those that have a clue and those who don't and even worse, those who don't WANT to have a clue...
|
|
|
|
Post by rabid on Nov 12, 2018 17:51:35 GMT -7
I agree with you 100%. Reminded me of Thucydides in a way.
|
|
|
|
Post by starcruiser on Nov 12, 2018 20:11:49 GMT -7
Wow...being included with him? I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!  |
|
|
|
Post by rabid on Nov 12, 2018 20:26:29 GMT -7
|
|
|
|
Post by starcruiser on Nov 12, 2018 21:18:31 GMT -7
Yea - that does fit far to well... I was hoping we weren't that far along in our decline but..?
Thing is - we are NOT an actual Democracy but, rather a Democratic Republic. True Democracy is very difficult to manage on a larger scale. Switzerland is about as large as a Democracy can get, and they still have their issues. Part of what doomed Athens was the increasing scale - due to increasing ambition. Slow communications combined with bad decisions and the whole thing started to unravel.
|
|
