What might be controversial arguements....

[cowboy40]

I have been giving this some thought. I know some will disagree with me, but here we go...

In many ways the Federation, especially in the TNG era, lies about the classifications about some of their ships. During this "Golden AGE", Star Fleet really wanted not to be known as what they are: a military. So, what they do is lie about what their ships really are.

Case in point, the Galaxy class "exploration cruiser". In terms of the defense systems absurd these ships, they far out reach what you find on other cruisers in the fleet. In combat capabilities these ships are battle wagons. These brutes are the toughest nuts in the fleet prier to the Borg threat. This makes them a battleship in everything but name.

I also believe these ships were designed to a flawed design concept. Space is a dangerous place. There are thousands of ways to die, and what the UFP has done here is created a bad cross between an apartment building in space and a battleship. It is inevitable these ships are going to have to use their guns. Yes the ship can separate and evacuate the dependents aboard the saucer section, but in doing this, the ship losses a part of its combat weapons. I understand these ships are meant very long term exploration mission, so quarters and facilities for families were made, but this is a compromise that creates a major weakness in this class. As long as these ships are forced to carry families they are compromised. What looks good on paper was a bad idea in reality of the situation.

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Now I want to give some thoughts on some other ships from the era.

There is no doubt in my mind, that when the Excelsior was launched she would have been called a cruiser, even during the TMP time this was a lie...She was a battleship, but by he time of the TNG era she would be serving as a lighter "heavy" cruiser in her role. The class would have surrendered the battleship role in the fleet to the Ambassador class.

By the time of TNG the Ambassador class would be serving as the true heavy cruiser serving along side the Nebula in that role. Yes, according to weapons and role, I would consider the Nebula a heavy cruiser serving on the tech tree right below the "battleships" of the Galaxy class.

When the Constellation class came around during the TMP era, she was a very capable and very combat efficient heavy cruiser. Designed to kick just about everything in known space around the battlespace, but once again the ships would be very run of the mill light cruisers in the TNG era, serving the fleet in the light cruiser roles of support to the rest of the fleet. serving in the backwoods and so on. No longer able to really be considered for front line solo operations on the expanding frontiers.

Just some thoughts of how the Federation tried to fool itself out of believing it is a military.

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Now I want to talk about a ship out of the TNG Officer's Manual. I want to talk about what they call the Paine class frigates. I have been looking at this ship, playing around with her and i have come up with a conclusion that makes her make some sense. When I look at her characteristics, she reminds me of a destroyer profile during the TMP era. Though I admit she is rather large for a destroyer in the TNG era, but that is where her systems would place her compared to TMP era ships.

Now moving along my line of logic with the other ships, her military profile would make her compatible to what you would expect of an escort vessel, but as I said, she is rather large even for that. Myself I would have classed her as a courier/escort. A ship to move people and supplies around on and a ship when needed to lead a convoy. Given that I can see her being called a "frigate" along the thinking of a modern NATO frigate for convoy escort...not like the frigates of the Four Years War Loknar class which were super destroyers.

I have had great success keeping the Paine to these roles in campaigns and scenarios once i figured these things out.

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Just my thoughts based on my experiences playing rounds in the TOS/TMP era and bringing those lessons into the TNG era!!!!

[cowboy40]

Some more thoughts on the Paine class. from her systems layout, I believe she to would have been a very late Kirk era ship. In FASA sources she is rated as a frigate, but in actual game play there is no way, not even in the Kirk era this ship could feel the role that FASA labeled as a frigate type vessel.

FASA considered a frigate, in the manner of the USN in the 60's, a larger ship then a destroyer that could work alone if needed, but most generally, used in groups as the primary fighting ship of the fleet.

Now the Paine class ships, by virtue of weapons, shields, and superstructure, are very fast escort ships. They are roughly the same size as the other Kirk era escorts in dimensions, but displacement way off the scale then the others, but this can be attested to by the engineering plant that puts the speed of the ship in the same category as Excelsior and Constellation. Though these engines are over kill for the role that she is equipped to handle. Tactically this ship can not, repeat not, handle the role of frigate in Star Fleet. In Brad's write up of his thoughts on her, he is right she becomes a toothless tiger in her listed role, but mind you once you realize that she is not meant to be on the front battling frigates, cruisers and battleships, and you place her in the role she is armed for, she becomes a beast. She is an advanced "escort" ship, so my advice, is to fight her like she is a convoy and patrol escort.

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going back over the blurb for the Paine class, it does state that it has a role to work as "fast recon" work as part of its mission profile. I am not sure what to think about this: in the TNG era this would be a redundant task, because the Moscow class scouts have this speed and are much better armed for the task in question. Now if you put her coming into the fleet around the late Kirk era, then this system profile does make more since.

At the time of the Four Years War tactical speeds of the fleet were around warp six; as the time moved in the TOS era tactical speeds were still around warp six, but during the TMP era the speed had increased to warp eight. Near the end of the Kirk era Star Fleet was pushing speeds of Warp 10. given this, the speed makes since if you keep it to the old scale. So yes I can see the Paine being used to get info quick back to the fleet given that all the other scouts in the force were moving between warp six and warp eight.

Given this information, I don't think my deductions are wrong about the Paine class.

Just some more thoughts on a different ship...

[tinker]

Oct 26, 2020 19:00:19 GMT -7 cowboy40 said:

I have been giving this some thought. I know some will disagree with me, but here we go...

In many ways the Federation, especially in the TNG era, lies about the classifications about some of their ships. During this "Golden AGE", Star Fleet really wanted not to be known as what they are: a military. So, what they do is lie about what their ships really are.

Case in point, the Galaxy class "exploration cruiser". In terms of the defense systems absurd these ships, they far out reach what you find on other cruisers in the fleet. In combat capabilities these ships are battle wagons. These brutes are the toughest nuts in the fleet prier to the Borg threat. This makes them a battleship in everything but name.

I don't know if it is "lying", but perhaps the more militant elements of the Federaton putting pressure on the more "optomistic" elements of the government.

The UFP wants to build a giant exploration cruiser that can carry the families of the explorers and the military goes "you know, that big ship is gonna be a pretty big target for hostile unknowns and then there are the Romulans...". Like the government of the UFP, their ships are a compromise.

I also don't think that those militant elements of the Federation got their way that often. Look at the war with the Cardassians: The Cardassians are a small empire compared to the UFP and technologically inferior to boot! Yet the Federation struggled to fight against...to a draw. Why?

Because weaponry wise, the Federation was not keeping up. Numerically, the most important ships in the Federation are the Excelsior and Miranda classes. Two ship designs that were getting dated - especially against the Galor Class. During a time where the Federation felt pretty secure, this combat capability would languish.

I also believe these ships were designed to a flawed design concept. Space is a dangerous place. There are thousands of ways to die, and what the UFP has done here is created a bad cross between an apartment building in space and a battleship. It is inevitable these ships are going to have to use their guns. Yes the ship can separate and evacuate the dependents aboard the saucer section, but in doing this, the ship losses a part of its combat weapons. I understand these ships are meant very long term exploration mission, so quarters and facilities for families were made, but this is a compromise that creates a major weakness in this class. As long as these ships are forced to carry families they are compromised. What looks good on paper was a bad idea in reality of the situation.

I believe this element was added to expand the possible storylines the writers could explore and nothing more.

There is no doubt in my mind, that when the Excelsior was launched she would have been called a cruiser, even during the TMP time this was a lie...She was a battleship, but by he time of the TNG era she would be serving as a lighter "heavy" cruiser in her role. The class would have surrendered the battleship role in the fleet to the Ambassador class.

Maybe not. The Excelsior was designed as a battleship to counter the Romulans and the Klingons. However, a treaty is signed with the Klingons and the Romulans all but disappear. Why continue developing it for a role that is no longer necessary? Not to waste what is otherwise a good design (once the powertrain was fixed) repurpose it as an excellent heavy research cruiser. This would explain why the bridge for the Excelsior shrunk substantially in size from STIII to later appearances. Fewer weapons were installed and required fewer weapons officers.

By the time of TNG the Ambassador class would be serving as the true heavy cruiser serving along side the Nebula in that role. Yes, according to weapons and role, I would consider the Nebula a heavy cruiser serving on the tech tree right below the "battleships" of the Galaxy class.

The Ambassador (to me) is the first attempt at a "diplomatic and science" cruiser - pioneering the concept before the Galaxy Class.

I see the Nebula as a lower cost alternative to the Galaxy and (when fitted with a weapons pod) as a true heavy battlecruiser.

When the Constellation class came around during the TMP era, she was a very capable and very combat efficient heavy cruiser. Designed to kick just about everything in known space around the battlespace, but once again the ships would be very run of the mill light cruisers in the TNG era, serving the fleet in the light cruiser roles of support to the rest of the fleet. serving in the backwoods and so on. No longer able to really be considered for front line solo operations on the expanding frontiers.

I see the Constellation as some kind of expedient - not really intended to be built but designed and placed in production to fill a gap where something else didn't work out (like that never happens in government...).

Now I want to talk about a ship out of the TNG Officer's Manual. I want to talk about what they call the Paine class frigates. I have been looking at this ship, playing around with her and i have come up with a conclusion that makes her make some sense. When I look at her characteristics, she reminds me of a destroyer profile during the TMP era. Though I admit she is rather large for a destroyer in the TNG era, but that is where her systems would place her compared to TMP era ships.

Now moving along my line of logic with the other ships, her military profile would make her compatible to what you would expect of an escort vessel, but as I said, she is rather large even for that. Myself I would have classed her as a courier/escort. A ship to move people and supplies around on and a ship when needed to lead a convoy. Given that I can see her being called a "frigate" along the thinking of a modern NATO frigate for convoy escort...not like the frigates of the Four Years War Loknar class which were super destroyers.

Its firepower could reflect that (at the time of its design/construction) the UFP felt pretty secure at the time of its commission - treaty with the Klingons for example. With no real threats at the time, why stuff it full of weapons?

[tinker]

Oct 29, 2020 21:56:18 GMT -7 cowboy40 said:

Some more thoughts on the Paine class. from her systems layout, I believe she to would have been a very late Kirk era ship. In FASA sources she is rated as a frigate, but in actual game play there is no way, not even in the Kirk era this ship could feel the role that FASA labeled as a frigate type vessel.

FASA considered a frigate, in the manner of the USN in the 60's, a larger ship then a destroyer that could work alone if needed, but most generally, used in groups as the primary fighting ship of the fleet.

Agreed. But just as that role has changed for our modern Navy, so too it seems to have changed in FASA's UFP as well.

Now the Paine class ships, by virtue of weapons, shields, and superstructure, are very fast escort ships. They are roughly the same size as the other Kirk era escorts in dimensions, but displacement way off the scale then the others, but this can be attested to by the engineering plant that puts the speed of the ship in the same category as Excelsior and Constellation. Though these engines are over kill for the role that she is equipped to handle. Tactically this ship can not, repeat not, handle the role of frigate in Star Fleet. In Brad's write up of his thoughts on her, he is right she becomes a toothless tiger in her listed role, but mind you once you realize that she is not meant to be on the front battling frigates, cruisers and battleships, and you place her in the role she is armed for, she becomes a beast. She is an advanced "escort" ship, so my advice, is to fight her like she is a convoy and patrol escort.

An excellent assessment, but I still like the Payne because it isn't a super/uber ship for its type.

going back over the blurb for the Paine class, it does state that it has a role to work as "fast recon" work as part of its mission profile. I am not sure what to think about this: in the TNG era this would be a redundant task, because the Moscow class scouts have this speed and are much better armed for the task in question. Now if you put her coming into the fleet around the late Kirk era, then this system profile does make more since.

Perhaps the Scout is a more long ranged and independent vessel while the fast recon ships acts more like a picket/skirmish unit?

[cowboy40]

Tinker you and i bump heads...well not really...but we look at the fleet from two different angles. You look at it from the explorer, happy go lucky hippie view, and I look at it from the reality of what is...the military view. The Federation needs to be ready to face the threats and dangers and the fleet needs to be prepared to act. And threw out its history Star Fleet keeps dropping the ball. There was no excuse for the Boarder War should have been fought to a draw. Star Fleet should have been able to kick the snot out of the Cardasians.

[JAFisher44]

I think that the reason the Federation didn't stomp the Cardassians in the Federation-Cardassian war wasn't because they couldn't but because they wouldn't. The Cardassians were trying to push into Federation territory and the Federation would push them back. It would defend it's territory and people, but it wouldn't push into Cardassian territory. Because the Federation wasn't willing to break the Cardassian Empire the conflict would continue as long as the Cardassina Empire had the materials and will to keep pushing.

[cowboy40]

Nov 16, 2020 20:13:52 GMT -7 JAFisher44 said:

I think that the reason the Federation didn't stomp the Cardassians in the Federation-Cardassian war wasn't because they couldn't but because they wouldn't. The Cardassians were trying to push into Federation territory and the Federation would push them back. It would defend it's territory and people, but it wouldn't push into Cardassian territory. Because the Federation wasn't willing to break the Cardassian Empire the conflict would continue as long as the Cardassina Empire had the materials and will to keep pushing.

given the later actions, the Federation missed an opportunity to avoid later troubles...

[starcruiser]

The Federation has 'moral standards' that the Cardassians don't have.

They (officially, at least) don't start wars. They don't stoop to mass murder or bombing whole populations etc...

Now, that does bring up the issue of General Order 24...doesn't it?

[tinker]

Nov 14, 2020 12:25:59 GMT -7 cowboy40 said:

Tinker you and i bump heads...well not really...but we look at the fleet from two different angles. You look at it from the explorer, happy go lucky hippie view, and I look at it from the reality of what is...the military view. The Federation needs to be ready to face the threats and dangers and the fleet needs to be prepared to act. And threw out its history Star Fleet keeps dropping the ball. There was no excuse for the Boarder War should have been fought to a draw. Star Fleet should have been able to kick the snot out of the Cardasians.

I don't see it as a "happy go lucky hippie" view. I see it for what it is: a bureaucracy with all of the flaws it brings with it. The Federation is full of special interests with a variety of goals all seeking to get their views represented at the expense of others. That is why the Federation ships are what they are for the most part: a compromise...much like the camel. In the FASA universe, most of the designs in the SRM are more militaristic than most. The extreme examples being the Andor, Locknar and Chandley classes. In the various TV programs and movies, the ships tend to be more multi-role with some exceptions in TNG: like the Defiant and Akira.

As far as the Federation "playing nice" with the Cardassians, I don't see it. One key word that came up a lot when the war was mentioned was "stalemate".

[cowboy40]

Nov 17, 2020 6:29:47 GMT -7 tinker said:

Nov 14, 2020 12:25:59 GMT -7 cowboy40 said:

Tinker you and i bump heads...well not really...but we look at the fleet from two different angles. You look at it from the explorer, happy go lucky hippie view, and I look at it from the reality of what is...the military view. The Federation needs to be ready to face the threats and dangers and the fleet needs to be prepared to act. And threw out its history Star Fleet keeps dropping the ball. There was no excuse for the Boarder War should have been fought to a draw. Star Fleet should have been able to kick the snot out of the Cardasians.

I don't see it as a "happy go lucky hippie" view. I see it for what it is: a bureaucracy with all of the flaws it brings with it. The Federation is full of special interests with a variety of goals all seeking to get their views represented at the expense of others. That is why the Federation ships are what they are for the most part: a compromise...much like the camel. In the FASA universe, most of the designs in the SRM are more militaristic than most. The extreme examples being the Andor, Locknar and Chandley classes. In the various TV programs and movies, the ships tend to be more multi-role with some exceptions in TNG: like the Defiant and Akira.

As far as the Federation "playing nice" with the Cardassians, I don't see it. One key word that came up a lot when the war was mentioned was "stalemate".

All those special interest keeping Star Fleet a paper tiger? A stalemate by design?

[krebizfan]

The Cardassian War did seem to be a case of putting in the minimal resources required to not lose the war and therefore cause the other side to accept a negotiated settlement. Partially that is the result of the first three seasons of TNG (during which the Cardassian War was at its hottest) involving very unimportant missions for the Enterprise and those parts of Starfleet seen on screen and partially the politics of the writing staff.

Oversized ships with lots of comfort have extra room to upgrade systems and add new weapon types. A ship built with just enough capacity to carry its initial combat load will need to be retired that much sooner.

[tinker]

Nov 18, 2020 19:15:23 GMT -7 krebizfan said:

The Cardassian War did seem to be a case of putting in the minimal resources required to not lose the war and therefore cause the other side to accept a negotiated settlement. Partially that is the result of the first three seasons of TNG (during which the Cardassian War was at its hottest) involving very unimportant missions for the Enterprise and those parts of Starfleet seen on screen and partially the politics of the writing staff.

Oversized ships with lots of comfort have extra room to upgrade systems and add new weapon types. A ship built with just enough capacity to carry its initial combat load will need to be retired that much sooner.

I don't see any correlation between the Galaxy Class not being involved in the Cardassian War equating to "minimal resources".

At the time, there were only six Galaxy Class ships in service and their role was not intended as "warships" - which completely undermines the idea that the Galaxy is geared primarily for war. Even if the Galaxy Class was involved in the war, it could not contribute significantly because of their limited numbers.

The Nebula Class was used in the war and effectively. They are numerically more important than the Galaxy Class and were quite effective - Gul Macet referred to the ship as having a "huge arsenal".