A symbol/emblem for the Tordell Empire

[trynda1701]

So, over on brickwall "An Armada on the Cheap" thread, he asked for ideas for a racial emblem for rarcher s' Tordell Empire.

I've created this thread so as not to distract from brickwall s' thread.

The question is an interesting one. Some thoughts.

For the UFP, it's obviously a modified UN logo. Makes sense in a cultural context, both organisations consisted of multiple members, nominally peace keeping organisations, and the stars replacing the Earth map makes it a bit less Terran-centric.

The Klingon trefoil. Its looks daggerlike, which, with hindsight, fits in with the Klingons use of martial weapons in later series, starting from Star Trek III, with the d'k tahg dagger. So again, fits with Klingon mentality.

brickwall has explained the three circles of the Unitys' logo representing the three Unity capital planets.

So, rarcher, can you give us a little insight into the Tordell, along the lines of the points above, that could help guide you, and any suggestions we might have, for your emblem?

[trynda1701]

More thoughts.

Remember, by the way, that the UFP UN inspired emblem came after the series, first shown in Franz Josephs' famous Technical Manual.

There are a few flags shown on TOS. At Spocks' court martial in "The Menagerie" there are two that aren't clearly seen, one a sky blue background, with some sort of yellow/gold emblem, just over Pikes' right shoulder, and one with black, white, red and perhaps yellow, just over Kirks' shoulder, two people to Pikes' right.

Plus, there's the red double lower pointed UFP banner with white writing and stars lain at the Starnes' expedition graves by Kirk in "And the Children Shall Lead". That one was also shown in the Technical Manual.

Food for thought in the discussion.

[steve]

Without knowing anything about the Tordell Empire, it would be hard to speculate on what the "National Flag" for that civilization would look like.

Remember, of course, that not all flags have to be so "on the nose" as to represent the civilization. Although the UFP has an UN-inspired flag and the Klingon symbol/flag is reminiscent of a knife (I think the Romulan one is of a bird of some kind if rusty memory serves me correctly), a lot of national flags are... Um... Ordinary? France, for instance, doesn't have a croissant on their flag (or the Eiffel Tower, for that matter). Japan, Germany, Ireland, others... You have whole lists of countries whose flags are very utilitarian in design.

You also have to take into account historical flags as well. Not all nations have had the same flag the entire time. Flags change over time.

If I was absolutely pressed into creating a flag for this civilization, my first thought, based upon the scant information I have of it, would be that it is a young civilization. Young civilizations go through a lot of design choices before settling in on one. A "compromise" by any government would be that they want to keep their civilization intact and so they try and accommodate as many of these symbols as possible.

The "National Flag" would likely be very plain: A few colors, easy to reproduce, a 5-year old child can draw it with reasonable success.

Regions within the civilization would have more varied flags (be they states, solar systems, districts, whatever they want to be called). These flags are obviously more complex in color choice and symbols.

Military branches would have their own flags and they should incorporate something about that service themselves.

[brickwall]

Furthermore, we don't know what type of species or collection of species the Tordellians are. Or what they'd consider their symbol for Imperial royalty. That would go into the background for shaping their symbol or symbols.

[trynda1701]

steve

Very good points about the difference between individual national flags and a collective flag representing a planetary civilization or group of planetary civilizations. We know national flags may still exist on Earth after the late 2000s'. TNG showed an American flag with at least one extra star representing a new State, and Picard mentioned the French flag in "The Last Outpost".

brickwall

Good point. But a thread where rarcher mentions their racial makeup has been started by someone else over on Facebook...

www.facebook.com/groups/999526423421497/permalink/8850528714987856/

[steve]

Because I'm bored and don't want to do any real work (why do REAL work when you can solve important problems such as these?), here is my "I have no idea who the Tordellians are but I'll make a guess as to what their flag / emblem is anyway?":

** The Tordellians do not have traditional flags (rectangular pieces of cloth flown from the short side of the rectangle) but instead have vertical flags that are flown from a crossbar. This is in part an extension of their clan-based history. Horizontal flags symbolize for them a sign of decay (since, from a vertical flag perspective, it means that the center-bottom of the flag has ripped off it's fastener or the clan is too lazy to fasten it down).

** Since they have vertical flags flown from top-down instead of left-to-right and because a pole might obscure the center, patterns and bold color distinctions are more important than the canton on a horizontal flag. There may be a central symbol (usually at center top or in middle-center) but it is large and usually distinctive enough so that you may know what it looks like from the back and obscured partially by a pole.

** There are, in fact, three "national" flags - One that represents the Empire when displayed for foreigners (government official to foreigner), one that represents the Empire when displayed for it's own citizens (government official to citizen) and one when a non-government citizen displays it for foreigners (this usually means a Tordellian business or a clan not representing the government is in foreign territory).

** The "symbol" for the Todellian civilization is an eight-pointed star, with the center-top point the largest and the center-bottom point larger than the remaining six (which are of equal and short length). All eight points are the same color with the center (octagonal in nature) being a complementary color. This symbol is on all three national flags: Middle-center for Empire-to-foreigner (and it is the only symbol on the flag), Top-center for Empire-to-citizen & bottom-center for citizen-to-foreigner. Citizens do not "represent" their government; Citizens represent their clan and a clan flag always has clan symbology at the top-center of their own flag.

** Military organizations are allowed to have a symbol in the center of the star along with different colorings in order do differentiate the various branches of the military. In simplified patterns, colors are used in lieu of an additional center symbol. Army = light brown or brown, Planetary air (air force) = dark orange, Planetary sea = green, space = white.

There. I'm done for now. Rip it apart as much as you want.

[brickwall]

Okay, folks, rarcher has provided us with more info on the Tordellians. From the Forum's post on Facebook, here it is:

"As for their looks? Mostly they're a humanoid species which are 3-4 times as strong as a human (so stronger still then klingons/vulcans say by double that) on average. They range from 6-6'5 foot in height and very disciplined and fanatic warrior like to their queen. The idea of being opposed to their Empire or more especially Queen is like so utterly alien to them as being 99.9% impossible. Mostly they're look is (for now) like a human just bulked up and bigger. Their government has pretty much in my rough lore always been an Empire even pre-space flight. Atm I got no symbols per say other then their ship shapes like triangles a lot? So maybe symbols for culture etc have a lot of triangles there too."

So it looks like both the Unity AND the Klingons have got some real nasty so-and-so's coming their way. I wonder if any Tordell ships raided Federation space? What do you all think?

[steve]

Jan 16, 2023 12:53:58 GMT -7 brickwall said:

Okay, folks, rarcher has provided us with more info on the Tordellians. From the Forum's post on Facebook, here it is:

"As for their looks? Mostly they're a humanoid species which are 3-4 times as strong as a human (so stronger still then klingons/vulcans say by double that) on average. They range from 6-6'5 foot in height and very disciplined and fanatic warrior like to their queen. The idea of being opposed to their Empire or more especially Queen is like so utterly alien to them as being 99.9% impossible. Mostly they're look is (for now) like a human just bulked up and bigger. Their government has pretty much in my rough lore always been an Empire even pre-space flight. Atm I got no symbols per say other then their ship shapes like triangles a lot? So maybe symbols for culture etc have a lot of triangles there too."

So it looks like both the Unity AND the Klingons have got some real nasty so-and-so's coming their way. I wonder if any Tordell ships raided Federation space? What do you all think?

First impressions:

** Tall. Strong. Humanoid. Highly obedient. Lives in a hierarchy (Queen). Triangles as an inspiration?

** From my perspective, every civilization needs counter-balancing traits. In my alt-universe, for example, the Romulans' 'weakness' is their paranoia and insistence to always keep everything close to the vest. By not allowing to 'open up,' they are essentially harming their civilization, economy, and so forth. The Klingons are great warriors but they live in Houses (clans) and don't work well together which neutralizes their battlefield advantage. The Federation is multi-varied which gives them a great technological base (necessity is the mother of invention, after all) but it's burdened by a bureaucracy where everyone, even the crackpots, have a say.

** My gut instinct for a counter-balancing trait is vanity. These people are vain. It is better to look good than to feel good. Their culture is a popularity contest. If you're going to have a population of males who are 6.5 feet tall and bulked out like a roided bodybuilder, that denotes a certain sense of vanity. They value bio-tech, specifically genetic engineering. There is immense social pressure to be popular. However...

** ...there is also a second-class. It is not cool to be natural-born in this civilization. "Natives" are frowned upon. "Augies" (their word for cyborgs) come in two flavors - Necessary and cosmetic. If you need to be augmented, you're not even at the end of the line because you can never GET in line to begin with.

** Their military mainly consists of natives and Augies with the Gifted (first-class citizens) always in charge. Those guys come from Central Casting; Square Jaw, full head of hair, deep voice, piercing stare, broad-shouldered. Inferior technology doesn't make you "look good" so there is evolutionary pressure to have better overall technology but it always balanced by "looking good." It can't just be good tech but it must also have form factor and social approval.

I'm probably way off-base but that would be my first sketch if I had to create the Tordellians. If I'm not entirely off-base, I'll expand upon this more. 

[steve]

More expansion:

** The vanity drive results from extreme but natural and biological mutation effects. Tordellians, using a contemporary age scale, last no longer than 45 years of age without significant medical intervention. Even with medical intervention, it is significantly challenging to live past 60. Thus, there is pressure for both longevity and to also look good throughout those years.

** The significant need for medical intervention means that there is a resource rationing for medical attention and the rationing is through social promotion (meritocracy?).

** Interaction with other species is significantly altering Tordellian culture. Their culture persists because of the bottleneck of resource management: Medical prolonging of life is rationed based upon your social status (what have you done for me this hour?). This drive for social approval is what ultimately drives other aspects of the society: If I build a better whatever, my social status improves; If I make a funnier joke, my social status improves; If I sweep the floor faster and better, my social status improves. There is a hyper-democracy component to this drive as well. Yet if other species can offer the same medical services, this threatens the hierarchy system. The Tordellian Elite can not afford competitors because scarce resources keeps the upper classes in power. So the Tordellians are forced to be aggressive and oppositional towards anyone they find until they can render them inert or destroy them outright.

[steve]

More expansion:

** The Tordellians have a "state security" system that almost everyone is afraid of but never talks about: "The Silent Hand." The Silent Hand is the security organization that keeps the Gifted in power. They kill dissidents before the dissidents even know that they were going to be dissidents. They break up protests before they are ever organized. The rationale is that other powers (namely, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, et. all) are trying to destroy the Tordellians and, therefore, they need to have an unforgiving defense against state-sponsored insurrections.

The Silent Hand answers to practically no one. If they think that you are going to be trouble, they do something about it. The End. Unless you are Gifted, the only reason why they haven't eliminated you yet is because they haven't gotten around to eliminating you yet. Otherwise, they will ask for "permission" first but "permission" is usually rubber-stamped because, if you're Gifted, you should know full well that you shouldn't be causing problems in the first place. Some Auggie somewhere doesn't know better; You do.

The usual talking point defense given to keeping The Silent Hand is simple: It works and it keeps the system working. The system is what Keeps Tordellians Great. If you're motivated to excel socially, that's good for Tordellian society. The more you work to be socially great, the more that society benefits.

** "Angel Donors" - The Gifted understand the appeal of lotteries and so "Angel Donors" (sympathetic Gifted) are allowed to a minor degree. Everyone loves a lottery and who doesn't like the story of a downtrodden Auggie who suddenly gets a biological upgrade to Normie status? The Gifted obviously don't allow such things any old time but they will allow them to boost morale and to lower the chances of a rebellion.

[brickwall]

Jan 21, 2023 18:14:03 GMT -7 steve said:

More expansion:

** The Tordellians have a "state security" system that almost everyone is afraid of but never talks about: "The Silent Hand." The Silent Hand is the security organization that keeps the Gifted in power. They kill dissidents before the dissidents even know that they were going to be dissidents. They break up protests before they are ever organized. The rationale is that other powers (namely, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, et. all) are trying to destroy the Tordellians and, therefore, they need to have an unforgiving defense against state-sponsored insurrections.

The Silent Hand answers to practically no one. If they think that you are going to be trouble, they do something about it. The End. Unless you are Gifted, the only reason why they haven't eliminated you yet is because they haven't gotten around to eliminating you yet. Otherwise, they will ask for "permission" first but "permission" is usually rubber-stamped because, if you're Gifted, you should know full well that you shouldn't be causing problems in the first place. Some Auggie somewhere doesn't know better; You do.

The usual talking point defense given to keeping The Silent Hand is simple: It works and it keeps the system working. The system is what Keeps Tordellians Great. If you're motivated to excel socially, that's good for Tordellian society. The more you work to be socially great, the more that society benefits.

** "Angel Donors" - The Gifted understand the appeal of lotteries and so "Angel Donors" (sympathetic Gifted) are allowed to a minor degree. Everyone loves a lottery and who doesn't like the story of a downtrodden Auggie who suddenly gets a biological upgrade to Normie status? The Gifted obviously don't allow such things any old time but they will allow them to boost morale and to lower the chances of a rebellion.

WOW! Fantastic update on Tordell society. Looks similar to Klingon society, especially within the Great Houses playing the Komerex Zah among themselves and within themselves.

If "The Silent Hand" ever discovers anyone from Imperial Intelligence within their ranks and finds out more about Klingon society from them, I'll bet they'd accuse the Empire of copying them - - and shamelessly at that.

Rarcher, what do you think?

[trynda1701]

I saw the initial thoughts on Tordellians bt rarcher on Facebook, plus someones suggestion for a Empire symbol of three upward pointing equilateral dark triangles linked to form a larger equilateral triangle, with a dark Crown in the middle downward pointing triangle in white, representing the Queen. The dark triangles and Crown, of course, could be any colour. That would still fit in with steve s' idea of multiple emblems.


The Silent Hand sound ruthless. And we thought Imperial Intelligence were bad! But it fits with all the powers having some form of Intelligence community.

As brickwall says, looking forward to hearing thoughts on all this from rarcher .

[steve]

Before thoughts on "The Silent Hand" gets out of hand (pun intended):

** The Silent Hand is an internal organization; It handles internal affairs. It doesn't spy on other powers as a main emphasis and only spies on them to the absolute minimum extent needed to fulfill it's goal of keeping the Tordellian Way of Life viable.

*** The EXTERNAL intelligence organization is far less shadow-y: The Tordellian Foreign Intelligence Service. It has offices and street addresses and websites and everything. It is a proper intelligence service and it's function is to anticipate what other civilizations want to do with the Tordellians. When you think of the Tordellian "James Bond," you think of them.

*** There is also a formal INTERNAL intelligence organization, with the very dull name of: The Tordellian Internal Intelligence Service. However, it's function is not so much "maintain the status quo" (which is TSH's job) as it is "everyone just needs to follow the law" which, believe it or not, is different (although, to be fair, there is a bit of overlap).

*** There is strong oversight for the formal intelligence services. These services 'know of' the TSH in the same way of, "Hey, this guy was assassinated. Oh, we've been told not to investigate further by someone high up. Oh... OK... Got it" sort of way. There is even a bit of friction between TSH & TIIS because, you know, the TIIS is the 'actual' internal intelligence service. Why the *bleep* do we need those guys? Isn't that, in a roundabout way, OUR job as well?!

** The Silent Hand answers to "almost" nobody but it does answer to the Queen's staff and, of course, the Queen herself. However, the Queen is intensely busy (she is, after all, the Queen) and rarely ever meets TSH directly. Her staff meets with TSH, the TSH tells them what they've learned, what they're doing about it and what they'd like to do with the Gifted. The Staff briefs the Queen, the Queen signs off on various things and goes about her day. Staff tells TSH what it can and can't do.

Again, if you're a schmuck in Tordellian society, and the TSH thinks that you're upsetting (or are going to upset) the proverbial Apple Cart, you're gone. They don't wait for approval because you're just a schmuck. However, if you're Gifted, the TSH will brief the Queen's staff and say, "Look, such-and-such is doing this; This is what we recommend."

** The Silent Hand is not All-Powerful. It's not this 'l33t k00l' organization with high-tech everything. It is an organization that has carte-blanche authority to keep the system working and to do so in as discreet a manner as possible. It can't fight like an army. It can't fight like a police force. A lot of it's power comes from it's mystique and it's reputation. Yes, individuals in TSH are very skilled in what they do but a lot of their effectiveness in what they 'may' do, 'might' do, 'could' do, etc. so forth.

** The Silent Hand has expanded greatly in size since they've started encountering other civilizations. They were a fairly tiny organization beforehand because the natural Tordellian system was fairly robust as it were. In order to alter that system, you needed to generate a lot of resources  and TSH had a handle on anticipating these sorts of events. The problem that other civilizations give to the Tordellians is that it lowers the barrier to allow for alternate systems of reward. Therefore, people who are less talented can make a greater ruckus and that increases the number of people needed to be dealt with.

** The Silent Hand may not be ultimately viable in a post-discovery Tordellian civilization. It's struggling to maintain it's size and it's effectiveness. It's struggling to maintain it's secrecy. TSH, quite frankly, may have to change dramatically and soon. For now, it's still a shadowy organization that 'removes' people and organizations at will but it's not invulnerable.

[trynda1701]

Ah, gotcha. Two agencies. No problem.

So, rarcher, what are your thoughts on these matters?

[rarcher]

Just saw this thread! Amazed it got going! LOL I'm a bit busy atm but i'll take a look and chime in on stuff

[brickwall]

Jan 22, 2023 5:23:52 GMT -7 trynda1701 said:

I saw the initial thoughts on Tordellians bt rarcher on Facebook, plus someones suggestion for a Empire symbol of three upward pointing equilateral dark triangles linked to form a larger equilateral triangle, with a dark Crown in the middle downward pointing triangle in white, representing the Queen. The dark triangles and Crown, of course, could be any colour. That would still fit in with steve s' idea of multiple emblems.


The Silent Hand sound ruthless. And we thought Imperial Intelligence were bad! But it fits with all the powers having some form of Intelligence community.

As brickwall says, looking forward to hearing thoughts on all this from rarcher .

Okay, I'll confess. I'm the guy who made the possible Tordellian symbol.

Rarcher, take your time in checking out the addition to the Tordellians here. Two thumbs up!

[steve]

More expansion:

** Tordellian society is not without it's upheavals. The greatest upheaval was the "Aug Revolution" which nearly upended the status quo. The takeaway from that revolution was better treatment of Augs (they're still treated lousy but at least they're not disposable anymore).

** "Pales" are mutated Tordellians who, unlike even the Gifted, have very long lifespans. "Pales" are so named for their very pale (but not the color white) skin & slender frames. Pales are always females. Tordellian society has no idea how "pales" are born and there doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason towards their seemingly random creation. "Pales" are taken away from their birth family practically from birth (although the birth family has visitation rights and is compensated quite generously; Think of winning the lottery) where they are placed in a reservation. Pales can not reproduce themselves and they are not subject to the norms of Tordellian society. "Pales" are incredibly rare: About 1 in every 30 million births. Pales are said to live indefinitely but they do eventually die and, whenever one of them dies, the Queen traditionally wears mostly white (and the only time that she does so). Due to their longevity, they typically serve as the Queen's private counsel for private matters. This counseling sometimes dovetails into policy but they are never involved in serious policy discussions.

** Suicide is a dirty little secret amongst The Gifted. It happens far more than it is reported and usually amongst Gifted who have lost significant popularity and can't seem to get it back.

** Relations with other major factions (not my alt-universe but canon): Typically cautious towards all. They "get" the Orions the most due to their merchant background which depends upon being popular / social. The Gifted consider the Klingons worthy rivals from a military sense. They are afraid of the Federation as they might upset the Tordellian status quo. They don't like the Vulcans because the Vulcans poke massive holes in the justifications for their society (although the Augs love them for that very reason). 

[brickwall]

Jan 24, 2023 15:01:44 GMT -7 steve said:

More expansion:

** Tordellian society is not without it's upheavals. The greatest upheaval was the "Aug Revolution" which nearly upended the status quo. The takeaway from that revolution was better treatment of Augs (they're still treated lousy but at least they're not disposable anymore).

** "Pales" are mutated Tordellians who, unlike even the Gifted, have very long lifespans. "Pales" are so named for their very pale (but not the color white) skin & slender frames. Pales are always females. Tordellian society has no idea how "pales" are born and there doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason towards their seemingly random creation. "Pales" are taken away from their birth family practically from birth (although the birth family has visitation rights and is compensated quite generously; Think of winning the lottery) where they are placed in a reservation. Pales can not reproduce themselves and they are not subject to the norms of Tordellian society. "Pales" are incredibly rare: About 1 in every 30 million births. Pales are said to live indefinitely but they do eventually die and, whenever one of them dies, the Queen traditionally wears mostly white (and the only time that she does so). Due to their longevity, they typically serve as the Queen's private counsel for private matters. This counseling sometimes dovetails into policy but they are never involved in serious policy discussions.

** Suicide is a dirty little secret amongst The Gifted. It happens far more than it is reported and usually amongst Gifted who have lost significant popularity and can't seem to get it back.

** Relations with other major factions (not my alt-universe but canon): Typically cautious towards all. They "get" the Orions the most due to their merchant background which depends upon being popular / social. The Gifted consider the Klingons worthy rivals from a military sense. They are afraid of the Federation as they might upset the Tordellian status quo. They don't like the Vulcans because the Vulcans poke massive holes in the justifications for their society (although the Augs love them for that very reason). 

Questions: would the Pales have any positions in the Queen's Cabinet, say in Education, Science or Environmental Affairs?

Would they have a similar stance regarding the Romulans, who are kin to the Vulcans?

Do they know anything about the Gorns and Tholians? Or the First Federation?

They surely are aware of the Kephans. Would they now consider them "insane" as the Klingons see them? Or just confusing?

Appreciate the expansion of this new Power in the Galaxy. Cheers and more to you, Steve!

[steve]

Jan 24, 2023 20:30:20 GMT -7 brickwall said:

Questions: would the Pales have any positions in the Queen's Cabinet, say in Education, Science or Environmental Affairs?

Would they have a similar stance regarding the Romulans, who are kin to the Vulcans?

Do they know anything about the Gorns and Tholians? Or the First Federation?

They surely are aware of the Kephans. Would they now consider them "insane" as the Klingons see them? Or just confusing?

Appreciate the expansion of this new Power in the Galaxy. Cheers and more to you, Steve!

This is rarcher's civilization; I'm just filling in a vacuum until his canon stuff goes up. Maybe some of my stuff is used; Maybe not. Just glad to be filling space in the meanwhile.

Pales are personal advisors. They don't hold an official position. The Tordellians kind of covet them as a "what if we could live like a normal species" sort of way. Of course, the Gifted have a more ulterior motive for isolating them: They want to be the ones controlling any medical advances that are created from them. Always remember - The Gifted are really good at being popular and STAYING popular. The Pales advise the Queen on non-official matters and sometimes say things like, "Maybe go easy on the Augs this time" sort of thing. The Pales can be seen as the closest thing to a "conscience" that the Queen has.

I really don't want to get too far into relations with other civilizations because I don't know where the Tordellians fit into the canon ST timeline: Are the TOS, the movie era (original cast), TNG, beyond that...?

Also, I kind of specialize in my own alt-universe which diverges with the canon (for instance, my Gorn are vastly different than canon Gorn, etc.). I could probably get up-to-speed on canon civilizations but I'm currently a bit involved with a certain storyline involving a Romulan settler.

Always happy to give ideas to others for their races and civilizations, though.

[steve]

More expansion:

** Why is there a queen and not a king? There are many reasons although probably the one that matters the most, at least contemporaneously, is that it's simply easier for a woman to be more popular in modern-day Tordellian society than a man. Sure, men have more muscle mass and "might makes right" but, if you're clever enough, you don't need to have your OWN muscle, you can just order muscle around. Also, men fancy themselves as "the power behind the throne" even though, in truth, they don't have that much authority. The Queen's formal cabinet of advisor traditionally has more men than women, thus, giving them the opportunity to brag that they're really "the power behind the throne."

** In the Formal Tordellian power structure, family doesn't account for much despite the "queen / monarchy" government type. The leader of the position is "the Queen" but popularity dictates power and someone can quickly emerge to be more popular than the Queen. The Silent Hand, despite being The Queen's personal "secret service," if you will, only upholds the status quo -- They are loyal to the position of the Queen, not the particular Queen herself. Therefore, they're not going to involve themselves in a power struggle of any sort so long as it's a legitimate power struggle and not one to topple over the entire status quo (such as when the Augs revolt).

** The Queen is typically young and single... That's kind of what makes her popular in the first place.

** There ARE titles for the Queen's parents: "Elder Patron" & "Elder Matron." They hold very little formal power but may be used as diplomats, dignitaries and hosts for intra-civilization parties.

** If the Queen DOES have children AND remains Queen (a rarity), they would be titled "First Princess / Prince," "Second Princess / Prince" etc so forth. A husband would be "Chief Patron." Although it hasn't happened yet, if the Queen is married to another woman, the title would be (theoretically) "Chief Matron." If there's only one daughter, it's just "Princess" although "First Princess" is perfectly acceptable. Same with only one son.

** A Queen has no 'term limit' although Queens rarely reign for more than a decade.

** Transitions of power are practically always peaceful (physically peaceful) and has always been in the modern (space-faring) era.

** A former Queen (one that has been de-throned in the usual manner) is not a "former Queen" but would have the title "Historic Ruler" (although just "Ruler" has gained in popularity and is now acceptable). "Rulers" don't comment on a Queen's policy; It's bad etiquette.

** Once a Ruler, it's virtually impossible to become Queen again. There's a reason why a Queen was kicked out. It's only happened twice in the modern era that someone has become Queen, demoted to Ruler and then re-emerged as a Queen and only because of very bizarre circumstances.

[rarcher]

So I'm sorry I havent replied to all this yet, my notes on the Tordell are a bit different then this in scope, what little history I got written for them is not quite as detailed as this. So please bare with me one day soon I'll find time to write up a full template of sorts for the Tordell Empire (and also post more battles of the Unity vs the Tordell!)

[brickwall]

Feb 20, 2023 7:25:15 GMT -7 rarcher said:

So I'm sorry I haven't replied to all this yet. My notes on the Tordell are a bit different than this in scope. What little history I got written for them is not quite as detailed as this. So please bear with me. One day soon, I'll find time to write up a full template of sorts for the Tordell Empire (and also post more battles of the Unity vs the Tordell!).

No problem, good buddy! I'm sure the Klingons would also run into the Tordellians and give them a bloody nose or worse.

In fact, I think you might have given me an idea on how to finally end the "Armada On The Cheap" thread by using the Tordellians. Stay tuned!

[rarcher]

Ok folks so after a long about of effort I was able to compile this ststcsolda.proboards.com/thread/1978/tordell-empire-fasaverse-canon-lore lore info on the Tordell on the forums. While I read the other stuff given in the symbol thread and I appreciate it. I might ask that this thread's info either be considered 'alt reality' or renamed to some other non-Tordell power vs that info

[trynda1701]

Feb 28, 2023 14:02:33 GMT -7 rarcher said:

Ok folks so after a long about of effort I was able to compile this ststcsolda.proboards.com/thread/1978/tordell-empire-fasaverse-canon-lore lore info on the Tordell on the forums. While I read the other stuff given in the symbol thread and I appreciate it. I might ask that this thread's info either be considered 'alt reality' or renamed to some other non-Tordell power vs that info

rarcher

No problem. Your creation, your rules. Personally, what's in your Tordell Fasaverse thread is now what should be considered the 'official' version.

[steve]

Feb 28, 2023 14:02:33 GMT -7 rarcher said:

Ok folks so after a long about of effort I was able to compile this ststcsolda.proboards.com/thread/1978/tordell-empire-fasaverse-canon-lore lore info on the Tordell on the forums. While I read the other stuff given in the symbol thread and I appreciate it. I might ask that this thread's info either be considered 'alt reality' or renamed to some other non-Tordell power vs that info

Not a problem. It was just a proposal and nothing more. I hope that you enjoyed the read and that it was entertaining. If someone else wants to use it, feel free.