In which we discuss the failings of JAFisher44

[JAFisher44]

Here you go. Have at me. Mind you, there is no guarantee I will agree with you, but I will consider your criticisms (even if only for a short moment before dismissing them out of hand )

[kaisernathan1701]

still waiting on that Vance style Excelsior Neck and Ent B saucer

other than that your a cool person

[JAFisher44]

LOL, Well, that excelsior neck is gonna have to wait. I do my graphics work in Corel Draw and I was not able to get it to install correctly on my new PC, so I don't have a program to work with right now.

[tinker]

Let me start by saying that I'm not sure of the potential profit of such a thread as this one.

So, here goes:

I don't have a thin skin as you assume. If that were the case, I would have simply just left this forum. If anyone has a thin skin, that would be you. Not once - but twice - you responded to my ideas with sarcasm and derision. That wasn't the issue I was bringing up. I have always accepted constructive criticism. When people just say "your idea is stupid", then I tend to ignore them.

However, in your case I could not be quiet. Yes, you are a Global Moderator and a Global Moderator has many responsibilities above and beyond "enforcing the rules".

A Global Moderator's job is to set a standard - be an example for everyone else on the forum. As a Global Moderator, your behavior must be at its best all of the time. But, we understand that you are human and humans make mistakes, have bad days, etc. That is why I did not respond to your first sarcastic response to my ideas. However, when you came again with another snide comment on a different day - that established a pattern. That is when I spoke up. My response was not intended to be an attack (which seems to be how you are reacting to it), but simply an observation that I had hoped you would take to heart. That didn't happen. Instead, you continued to "defend" your actions even though I had pointed out that they were wrong (I even gave you an example of how you could have responded - which again you chose to ignore).

An additional responsibility of a Global Moderator is to promote constructive interaction (even in situations where opinions may differ) and not to "beat down" anyone they don't agree with.

This was the behavior I was noticing in you. I am not here to "bash" you or bring you down. I was actually offering constructive criticism to help you become a better Global Moderator. When I first became a moderator of a forum, I made a few mistakes myself and had to "eat crow" now and then. I was just a bit shocked to see a Global Moderator respond in the way that you did and forgot that you were relatively new to the position. For that I apologize as my response may have appeared a bit harsh because I forgot that. Don't worry, I am not offended (my skin is quite thick) and will continue to contribute to this forum in the most constructive manner that I can.

[JAFisher44]

tinker said:

Let me start by saying that I'm not sure of the potential profit of such a thread as this one.

The point of this thread is for people to have a chance to air their grievances against me. I do not want discussions of my perceived failings as a Moderator to hijack someone else's thread. With this in mind, I created this Thread. If a person has an issue with me as a moderator or as a poster they can post it here where I will consider their criticisms.

Complaints against other members can be reported. But, as you pointed out, I would be the authority receiving any complaints about myself. At least this way peoples issues with me will be open to public scrutiny, as will my responses. So I will be accountable to the community in some way at least. People are still free to message me, or report me to myself if they would prefer to remain anonymous, but I make this option available to anyone who would like to see me squirm under the baleful glare of public scrutiny.

tinker said:

However, in your case I could not be quiet. Yes, you are a Global Moderator and a Global Moderator has many responsibilities above and beyond "enforcing the rules".

A Global Moderator's job is to set a standard - be an example for everyone else on the forum. As a Global Moderator, your behavior must be at its best all of the time. But, we understand that you are human and humans make mistakes, have bad days, etc. That is why I did not respond to your first sarcastic response to my ideas. However, when you came again with another snide comment on a different day - that established a pattern. That is when I spoke up. My response was not intended to be an attack (which seems to be how you are reacting to it), but simply an observation that I had hoped you would take to heart. That didn't happen. Instead, you continued to "defend" your actions even though I had pointed out that they were wrong (I even gave you an example of how you could have responded - which again you chose to ignore).

An additional responsibility of a Global Moderator is to promote constructive interaction (even in situations where opinions may differ) and not to "beat down" anyone they don't agree with.

You are not the author of my responsibilities as a Moderator. You are welcome to your opinion on how a Moderator on a forum should behave, or on how any poster on a forum should behave. Your opinions, however, are not laws.

My job as an admin is to enforce the rules. Full stop.

Furthermore, I would not have taken action against any member of this board for saying the things I said to you. I hold everyone here to the same standard. That includes myself. I do not have any responsibility to act in any manner beyond the standards that apply to every poster here.

tinker said:

This was the behavior I was noticing in you. I am not here to "bash" you or bring you down. I was actually offering constructive criticism to help you become a better Global Moderator. When I first became a moderator of a forum, I made a few mistakes myself and had to "eat crow" now and then. I was just a bit shocked to see a Global Moderator respond in the way that you did and forgot that you were relatively new to the position. For that I apologize as my response may have appeared a bit harsh because I forgot that. Don't worry, I am not offended (my skin is quite thick) and will continue to contribute to this forum in the most constructive manner that I can.

But you weren't offering constructive criticism. You were just saying I'm a bad Mod. Constructive criticism should include examples of how it could be done better. Regardless, I do not agree that my behavior was in any way wrong. Even after you brought it to my attention. I do not say this because I am giving myself any extra slack, but because I would not disapprove of similar statements from anyone.

the fact of the matter is that you regularly speak with authority about the intentions and thoughts of the game designers. I don't know for sure if this is an intentional ploy to add weight to your arguments or just a subconscious affectation, but regardless it is a bad way to argue for at least two reasons:

1) No one believes that you have any special access to this information. Its just a fact of the internet. The likelihood that you happen to be part of a small inner circle of game designers and are privy to their intents and design decisions just just astronomically small.

2) Your ideas should be able to stand on their own merits. Even if you are 100% accurate on the original intent of the game designers the only thing that that proves is that your ideas are in line with those intentions. This has no bearing on whether or not they are good ideas.

What you are doing is called an appeal to authority. It is a classic fallacy and a bad debate technique. The posts you took issue with were addressing that. In that context, they were appropriate to the discussion. You made statements intended to add weight to your arguments. I pointed out that they did not. I did not direct any attacks at you, only your arguments and claims. I also did explain the reasons I believe your ideas do not improve the game. You have not addressed those points at all.

[morrus]

A global moderator has exactly the responsibilities agreed between them and the forum owner; no more, no less. On my forums, for example, the moderators brief is simple: keep the peace. That's it. Other forums may work differently, but there's little traction in telling a moderator what his job is; it's whatever the forum owner says it is.

That said, I am 100% sure that if any other two members had gotten into a feud like that, the moderator would have intervened. In that light, there is a limit to a mod's freedom of speech - simply because nobody moderates the moderators, so we have to trust the moderator to moderate himself.

It's just a little forum, though. It doesn't really matter that much. We can always leave if it becomes too much to bear. Hopefully that thread wasn't typical.

[JAFisher44]

morrus,

I did intervene. The discussion between tinker and I started as a discussion about his desire to limit torpedoes and shields. When james43a posted his complaint about me it became apparent to me that the main thrust of our discussion had become a debate about my moderation. This is why I chose to end the discussion in that thread and move it to a more appropriate place. Perhaps it took me a little longer to realize the shift because of my personal involvement, but, as tinker says, I am only human.

The conversation itself is not inappropriate, in my opinion. Only that it was hijacking your thread. A problem which I have remedied now, by opening this thread. In the future if discussion of my moderation pops up in any thread I will immediately direct it here. Sorry your thread had to be the one where I learned the lesson.

[tinker]

Apr 15, 2013 12:15:01 GMT -7 JAFisher44 said:

You are not the author of my responsibilities as a Moderator. You are welcome to your opinion on how a Moderator on a forum should behave, or on how any poster on a forum should behave. Your opinions, however, are not laws.

My job as an admin is to enforce the rules. Full stop.

Fine. I can see that this thread will bear little (if any) fruit. I can see that anything I offer to you will not even be considered. I'll say a few more things, but after this I will not be participating in this thread.

But you weren't offering constructive criticism. You were just saying I'm a bad Mod. Constructive criticism should include examples of how it could be done better.

I think you may want to go back and re-read the thread. I did offer constructive criticism and you blew me off.

Regardless, I do not agree that my behavior was in any way wrong. Even after you brought it to my attention.

Then what is the point of this thread? If you want us to tell what you think, but have already made up your mind that you are right and everyone else is wrong, then this thread is a waste of your time and ours.

The fact of the matter is that you regularly speak with authority about the intentions and thoughts of the game designers. I don't know for sure if this is an intentional ploy to add weight to your arguments or just a subconscious affectation, but regardless it is a bad way to argue for at least two reasons:

1) No one believes that you have any special access to this information. Its just a fact of the internet. The likelihood that you happen to be part of a small inner circle of game designers and are privy to their intents and design decisions just just astronomically small.

2) Your ideas should be able to stand on their own merits. Even if you are 100% accurate on the original intent of the game designers the only thing that that proves is that your ideas are in line with those intentions. This has no bearing on whether or not they are good ideas.

I have offered both and that is all I will say on that topic - as it is a bit off-topic for this thread.

What you are doing is called an appeal to authority. It is a classic fallacy and a bad debate technique. The posts you took issue with were addressing that. In that context, they were appropriate to the discussion. You made statements intended to add weight to your arguments. I pointed out that they did not. I did not direct any attacks at you, only your arguments and claims. I also did explain the reasons I believe your ideas do not improve the game. You have not addressed those points at all.

I have addressed them at length and you have chosen to ignore them - so I see no point in continuing this debate with you. However, this statement by you (and the previous ones) clearly points out that there is still some kind of "grudge" here that you wish to continue. Your last statements are full of hostility - this is even after I apologized to you. This shows that you cannot even take that graciously!

So I have said my peace. I had little hope for this thread and am sorry to say that I was right. I'm done with this thread, but I will continue to post on this forum normally.

[JAFisher44]

tinker said:

Fine. I can see that this thread will bear little (if any) fruit. I can see that anything I offer to you will not even be considered. I'll say a few more things, but after this I will not be participating in this thread.

It depends on what you mean. This is a place to discuss the issue. Not a place where you bring up an issue and I automatically tell you that, yes, you are always right and then apologize. Does it not even enter into your mind that you could possibly be wrong? You are free to participate or not, as you see fit, in this thread. There is no mandatory participation in this forum.

tinker said:

I think you may want to go back and re-read the thread. I did offer constructive criticism and you blew me off.

Ok, I went back and re-read the thread. I found one thing that could be construed as constructive, and not in your original objection, but in a later post. I did not respond to it, you are correct, but I will respond now.

tinker said:

What would have been "on topic" and constructive would have been to ask me to elaborate on my points - not to accuse me of having "telepathic links across time" with the game designers.

I am sorry, but I disagree. No further elaboration on your personal knowledge of the intent or thoughts of the original game designers would have any impact on the validity of your proposed limits. Since it is my responses to those claims that you object to I don't see how your "constructive criticism" has any merit.

tinker said:

Then what is the point of this thread? If you want us to tell what you think, but have already made up your mind that you are right and everyone else is wrong, then this thread is a waste of your time and ours.

The point of this thread is for anyone on this forum to be able to raise objections about me without interrupting someone else's thread. Just because I don't agree with you on this particular issue does not mean that I will never agree with anyone about anything.

tinker said:

I have offered both and that is all I will say on that topic - as it is a bit off-topic for this thread.

You have offered both what?

tinker said:

I have addressed them at length and you have chosen to ignore them - so I see no point in continuing this debate with you. However, this statement by you (and the previous ones) clearly points out that there is still some kind of "grudge" here that you wish to continue. Your last statements are full of hostility - this is even after I apologized to you. This shows that you cannot even take that graciously!

So I have said my peace. I had little hope for this thread and am sorry to say that I was right. I'm done with this thread, but I will continue to post on this forum normally.

There is no grude and no hostility! What hostility? nothing I have said has been hostile. At best I displayed a bit of snark when addressing your posts at the very beginning of the exchange. But, just because I disagree with your ideas and think you use bad arguements to support them doesn't mean I'm hostile to you. I'm glad that you will not leave just because of me. It is not my wish to drive anyone away from the forum.

[Gorn]

Ya OK. My problem is that you haven't been playing any damn VASSAL lately. If it's not so fun, WARN everybody. If it is fun then well PLAY IT DAMMIT!!!
Hijack thread: everyone ELSE join in on a Friday night! Like the one coming up!

That's all.

[jeffwright]

Apr 14, 2013 22:38:09 GMT -7 JAFisher44 said:

Here you go. Have at me. Mind you, there is no guarantee I will agree with you, but I will consider your criticisms (even if only for a short moment before dismissing them out of hand )

I love your art myself.

[JAFisher44]

Apr 22, 2013 16:30:14 GMT -7 jeffwright said:

I love your art myself.

Well, that's not exactly a failing, but thanks

[trekcross]

I personaly have not complaint, though I think maybe a backup and not solo moderater would help. Back when Brad first made the boards and created the Moderators with me, Neale, and several others, we saw then how Neale really used his power to silence those who he did not agree with, which was wrong. Before the Reset I was the sole moderator and I always wanted a backup or someone to bounce ideas off of as Brad was always so busy with his writings we hardly saw him (and he rarely responded to the Moderators area). I felt then that it was a MAJOR commitment then for me to always be on since I was the sole moderator. Granted probably one of the reasons I am hardly here is the freedome of that responsebility lol.

We (me and you and several others who have been here) know Brad well enough we know what he would like and not like. Use your best Judgment and you will do well.

[morrus]

To be honest, it's not really busy enough to really need a mod for anything other than spam deletion. Most of the traffic is Meteo posting his lists.

[Romulas]

De-cloaking ...No complaints on my part. Engage cloak ...

[Brad R. Torgersen]

Since JAFisher has been kind enough to do mod duties while I am away on semi-permanent hiatus, any mod failings (on behalf of the forum) are mine, not his. JMHO.



Mod Edit: It's JAFisher not JAFischer! I fixed it for you.

[Gorn]

OK I'm not a mod, but, I want to point out....just now.... that BRAD, what you are doing is called NECROMANCY on a forum thread....you are posting on a dead thread and trying to raise it again?
JA? Can you tell whoever this guy is that he's doing a no-no on this forum?

[JAFisher44]

Brad owns the site so I figure he can dig up whatever he wants. Also, thredomancy is usually ok if a poster has real content that is relevant to the post. Brad's post meets both of those criteria. Now if someone raises a thread to say "Yeah!" or "I agree" there will be trouble!

[rarcher]

Yeah! I agree! JAFisher44 *hides*

[Gorn]

Yaaa I should of put the applicable codes in my post [dweeb voice][fooling around] [/dweeb voice][/fooling around]

[andy]

I've never had any problems with ya. We've had a few personal talks in the past and you've always been a straight shooter, JA.

[Chris]

None so far but I'm still new... I'm sure it'll be fine.