steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 4, 2020 19:31:22 GMT -7
Up until now, I haven't really mentioned the Hunnarians. Who are they? Don't bother searching for them because they only exist in my little alt universe.
To recap in case people don't like to read prior posts, my alt universe is somewhat Romulan-centric. All the sides are "good" in some aspect (maybe the Klingons not so much but, even they have a non-evil (according to them) method to their madness) but, for the most part, the Romulans are the 'most good'. Paranoid, cunning & suspicious but in a good way. According to them.
And why are they paranoid, cunning & suspicious of everything that is not Romulan? Well, it all started with the Hunnarians.
Hunnarians are not a separate race; They ARE Romulans, just like Vulcans are Romulans. However, just as though the Vulcans are shameless intellectuals who never have any qualms with telling you how insufficient you are (and they honestly think that's a good thing because, you know, telling the truth is always a good thing and Vulcans ALWAYS tell the truth...) , Hunnarians never had a problem showing you how wimpy you were in front of everyone else (because, that too, was being 'good').
If the Klingons had a step-brother, they'd be the Hunnarians: The Hunnarians were a segment of Romulan society that believed solely in shoot first, shoot often and, if you really wanted to, ask questions several generations down the road when looking at the remains of your enemy which are on display as an exhibit in some museum.
The Romulan Empire, during it's youth, was being pulled in many directions and the Hunnarians were frequently frustrated that society wasn't being pulled in THEIR direction &, when it was being pulled in their direction, not fast and enthusiastically enough. Enemies were everywhere in Hunnarian mentality even though Romulans had never encountered another sentient race and, at best, found some single-cell organisms on some other planets. It didn't matter; The Hunnarians wanted plasma torpedoes on every starship & every crew member walking around with a laser rifle because... You just never know.
First and foremost, how did they get the name "Hunnarians"? It comes from the Romulan language, based upon a word that roughly translates to "paranoia" but in a derogatory sense. The Hunnarians, naturally, took this slur as a badge of pride and called themselves exactly that later on.
The Hunnarians, sensing that society had pegged them as the paranoid lunatics that they were, decided that the best way to be in charge (and to protect society, of course) was to overthrow the government. Quickly. As in, a coup. The Hunnarians were chiefly comprised of ex-military, ex-security, ex-government personnel so organizing a coup wasn't really that hard for them.
I never thought about the specifics of the "Civil War" within the Romulan Empire between the Hunnarians and the Romulans. About as much detail as I ever went was that the Romulans were really, really close to being defeated. As in, one or two unlucky breaks and the Hunnarians really would've won. For real. However, the Hunnarians were eventually beaten back and defeated, being forced to flee into unknown space. The Romulans, too weak to pursue them after an exhaustive and devastating civil war, were forced to watch them flee & wonder when, not if, they would return.
The Romulans were in a fairly weakened state immediately after the civil war but not so weak as to begin to prepare for the supposed return and assault from the Hunnarians. The Hunnarians didn't exactly flee with only a toothpick and a rusty spoon, however; They left with some of the best military hardware that the Romulan Empire had. So, should they return, it wasn't as though all they could do was to throw water balloons at the Romulans; They had the military firepower to finish what they had started.
The Hunnarians and the bruising civil war is partially why the Romulan Empire is as paranoid and devious as they are: They feel as though they must always prepare for a sudden and devastating ambush. Romulan society was wrecked after the civil war with civilians killed and monuments destroyed and natural wonders ransacked... The surviving citizens vowed never to be on the back foot of an ambush like that ever again.
The Vulcans thought this to be a bit foolish; Yes, some preparation was necessary but all of this military build-up was so... Illogical. And we all know how that eventually turned out.
The legend of the Hunnarians lives rent-free in the minds of many Romulans. They are the boogeymen of the Romulan Empire; You tell your children that, if they don't eat their vegetables, the Hunnarians will come and kill them, after which the kids will not only eat the vegetables but also the plate, the napkins & the cutlery just for safe measure. The Romulan Star Navy is so paranoid of the Hunnarians returning that it has it's own secret fleet of elite starships waiting for the Hunnarians to return. This elite fleet has the finest crew & the best technology the Romulans have to offer. If it's a piece of technology, this fleet has gotten it's hands on it first. And they never engage in combat because they are always standing guard in case the Hunnarians show up. When the Romulans fought the Klingons? They weren't used. Against the Feds? Weren't used.
If you are a Romulan Emperor, you both fear the Hunnarians returning and wish that they would return just so that you had the chance to crush them under your heel once and for all. The Romulans feel as though, if they fought them again, this time, they'd win because they can't be ambushed like the last time. If you are a Romulan starship captain, you lust for the chance to engage a possible Hunnarian in combat. Revenge is a dish best served cold and it is very, very cold in space. You better believe that a mass majority of Navy personnel, although partially fearing the potential might of the Hunnarians, go to bed at night wishing that they'd return so they'd get the chance to fight them.
And the Romulans aren't just waiting at the front door for these guys; They've even got a special scouting unit set up that has gone out looking for them. And they continue to search for any sign of the Hunnarians, even though they haven't found them yet.
Now, there are a few theories, one of which is that they just died out. It's not easy going into outer space and actually living there. Go ask all those little "Hey! Let's all live in mud huts and sing happy songs and show the Fed bureaucracy that the Power of Love can conquer SPACE!" groups in the Federation space that eventually realized that, yup, colonizing space is really hard. You don't need bad guys to kill you; Space will do that to you for free.
And another theory is that they just kept traveling. Even at a leisurely pace, the Hunnarians could be so far away from Romulan territory that it may take decades of non-stop traveling before the Romulans could even pick up a signal from the Hunnarians.
Have to end this here. More later. Comments always welcome. Thanks.
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steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 6, 2020 17:17:45 GMT -7
In my alt universe, there are many independent groups all vying to eke out some sort of eccentric style of living in Federation space. The Federation generally tolerates these groups, even if some of them shake their fist & gnash their teeth at the Federation (and even, occasionally, tries to bite the Federation as well). Eventually, a lot of these groups, upon realizing how difficult it is to exist in space, come back into the fold of the Federation. This is one of many such groups:
Spacesteaders is a loose organization of enthusiasts who insist upon living in deep space, mostly independent from all outside assistance; Not on a planet but simply in space itself, upon specially-designed 'spacecraft' that are mostly stationary (much like an outpost). This style of living is different than the Orion caravans, who live on spaceships but move about and generally receive assistance and materials from planets.
Spacesteading can be seen as the outer space equivalent of attempting to live in the middle of the desert or the middle of the arctic while still retaining some quality of living and for an indefinite period of time. The material goal of spacesteading is to have true technological independence from any outside assistance, as opposed to having to purchase any sort of specialized resource. For instance, a common practice of spacesteaders would be to set out very fine, extremely large nets and capture micro-asteroids and convert that material into an adaptable resource that can be used to create other useful materials, anywhere from water to food to building materials. Energy could be harvested from weak ion winds, faint sunlight or even distant gravitational fields.
Spacesteading is not for the weak of heart; It could be thought of as going out into the middle of the forest with nothing but the clothes on your back & a knife and trying to eke out some modest amount of living. Even for the TOS era, it is considered very spartan living conditions. If you are a spacesteader, you are typically human, male & the TOS equivalent of roughly around the age of 30-55. Women are also spacesteaders but they are mainly there for the support of their husbands or boyfriends; Very few women independently become a spacesteader.
Spacesteaders tend to have a strong libertarian streak about them although it never extends to militaristic or extremist political extents. A lot of otherwise mainstream spacesteaders consider the practice a technological & logistical puzzle to "solve." There are scientists who enjoy "dabbling" in the practice if only to see if their theories have practical applications in the field.
The practice is quickly maturing and a lot of participants practice it with relative safety, for instance, a colony or some other civilized society is nearby if emergency assistance is needed in some regard.
Very few Vulcans endeavor in the field although they find the field to be "fascinating," although they also find many of the participants to be eccentric, illogical and egotistical to an extent.
Spacesteading is not exclusively a Federation trait; Romulans and Klingons also practice it to a lesser extent. The Romulans have more governmental support and examine the field from a more military perspective. It is strictly a civilian effort in the Klingon Empire and one that is restricted to efforts by lone individuals. The Gorn have no equivalent of the practice. Theoretically, the Orion, with their caravans, might have a very loose interpretation with a phenomenon called "micro-caravans," which is a caravan that is small enough in number for which a full array of self-sustaining services is not available. This phenomenon is not intentional but merely the result of political, criminal, religious or some other streak of happenstance to occur to create them.
The field of spacesteading has provided some limited practical applications to Star Fleet in terms of psychological studies & some technological advances but nothing significant or ground-breaking. Spacesteaders aren't considered much of a political force, even on a local level and they certainly aren't considered a military threat to even a modest, local government. If anything, governments treat them as a novelty and the vast majority of spacesteaders welcome the publicity as a chance to spread their practice to others.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 6, 2020 18:23:06 GMT -7
In my alt universe, there are many independent groups all vying to eke out some sort of eccentric style of living in Federation space. The Federation generally tolerates these groups, even if some of them shake their fist & gnash their teeth at the Federation (and even, occasionally, tries to bite the Federation as well). Eventually, a lot of these groups, upon realizing how difficult it is to exist in space, come back into the fold of the Federation. This is one of many such groups: Spacesteaders is a loose organization of enthusiasts who insist upon living in deep space, mostly independent from all outside assistance; Not on a planet but simply in space itself, upon specially-designed 'spacecraft' that are mostly stationary (much like an outpost). This style of living is different than the Orion caravans, who live on spaceships but move about and generally receive assistance and materials from planets. Spacesteading can be seen as the outer space equivalent of attempting to live in the middle of the desert or the middle of the arctic while still retaining some quality of living and for an indefinite period of time. The material goal of spacesteading is to have true technological independence from any outside assistance, as opposed to having to purchase any sort of specialized resource. For instance, a common practice of spacesteaders would be to set out very fine, extremely large nets and capture micro-asteroids and convert that material into an adaptable resource that can be used to create other useful materials, anywhere from water to food to building materials. Energy could be harvested from weak ion winds, faint sunlight or even distant gravitational fields. Spacesteading is not for the weak of heart; It could be thought of as going out into the middle of the forest with nothing but the clothes on your back & a knife and trying to eke out some modest amount of living. Even for the TOS era, it is considered very spartan living conditions. If you are a spacesteader, you are typically human, male & the TOS equivalent of roughly around the age of 30-55. Women are also spacesteaders but they are mainly there for the support of their husbands or boyfriends; Very few women independently become a spacesteader. Spacesteaders tend to have a strong libertarian streak about them although it never extends to militaristic or extremist political extents. A lot of otherwise mainstream spacesteaders consider the practice a technological & logistical puzzle to "solve." There are scientists who enjoy "dabbling" in the practice if only to see if their theories have practical applications in the field. The practice is quickly maturing and a lot of participants practice it with relative safety, for instance, a colony or some other civilized society is nearby if emergency assistance is needed in some regard. Very few Vulcans endeavor in the field although they find the field to be "fascinating," although they also find many of the participants to be eccentric, illogical and egotistical to an extent. Spacesteading is not exclusively a Federation trait; Romulans and Klingons also practice it to a lesser extent. The Romulans have more governmental support and examine the field from a more military perspective. It is strictly a civilian effort in the Klingon Empire and one that is restricted to efforts by lone individuals. The Gorn have no equivalent of the practice. Theoretically, the Orion, with their caravans, might have a very loose interpretation with a phenomenon called "micro-caravans," which is a caravan that is small enough in number for which a full array of self-sustaining services is not available. This phenomenon is not intentional but merely the result of political, criminal, religious or some other streak of happenstance to occur to create them. The field of spacesteading has provided some limited practical applications to Star Fleet in terms of psychological studies & some technological advances but nothing significant or ground-breaking. Spacesteaders aren't considered much of a political force, even on a local level and they certainly aren't considered a military threat to even a modest, local government. If anything, governments treat them as a novelty and the vast majority of spacesteaders welcome the publicity as a chance to spread their practice to others. Love it! So, would you call this a "Wagon Trek to the Stars"?
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steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 7, 2020 17:51:39 GMT -7
Whenever you want to have some fun at a Romulan's expense (and you have no qualms with this particular Romulan never giving you a Christmas card during the holidays and, for that matter, giving you the occasional glare), do care to ask about Unicursalism and ask that Romulan what their thoughts are on that particular topic. And if you want to be particular malicious, do ask of this topic when they are midway through sipping on a drink.
Unicursalism is the Romulan religious equivalent of Vulcan ideology. Since it is considered "religion" (and many, many Romulans have no hesitation of using quote marks in that regard), the ideology is considered legal in Romulan culture. It is considered religion because, in a mainstream religious text, two prominent religious figures are discussing life in general when one states to the other that, reality is but a pathway through a maze without decisions but only the illusion of decisions. Thus, was born the 'religion' of Unicursalism or the study of mazes (or paths) that never branch.
A Romulan never accidentally becomes an Unicursalist. Indeed, Unicursalists usually begin as destitute citizens who are brought in as unwitting recruits of the religion in exchange for a boost in their quality of life. Sleep here, eat this meal and let us discuss with you the finer points of Unicursalism and how it could change your life forever and for the better.
Unicursalists are not well regarded in Romulan society; Putting unicursalism on your resume is not a wise career mood by any stretch of the imagination. Surprisingly, women make up a fair number of unicursalist ranks as unicursalism gives them some amount of authority without the usual nepotism, cronyism or other disadvantages that women must face in the civilian and military workplace. Unicursalism is essentially Vulcan ideology wrapped in a considerable amount of religious text and most Romulans can see that fairly transparently. However, calling out one religion on their apparent motivations is considered a bad idea because that would expose other religions to the same treatment.
The Romulan government is not entirely daft towards how to deal with Unicursalists; Indeed, they've discovered that Unicursalists are only too eager to be used as colonists towards the edge of unexplored space. As the famed Romulan satirist Polos Rimokus dryly noted, "The best place for an Unicursalist, besides in the middle of an empty room, is on the border of known space itself for it is in both places where they have the best success in airing their views to a receptive audience."
Being colonists, Unicursalists have been able to consolidate their numbers and have control over a few colonies of considerable size at the edge of known space, away from the Federation. These colonies are functionally independent of the Romulan government although technically abide by their rules.
Unicursalists are used to being on the receiving end of jests and, yet, there is almost an unbearable begrudging admission by Romulans that Unicursalists are correct in their views as they are, in essence, very religious Vulcans.
Unicursalism is not a large religion nor even a small one; Perhaps it is best described as a very large cult but a cult that continues to slowly grow in spite of all of the passive-aggressive tactics used against it. Indeed, many of the tactics used against the Unicursalists have backfired. For instance, by leaving the Unicursalists essentially isolated on the edge of space, it gives them free reign to continue their pursuits and perfect ideologies that are essentially identical to that of the Vulcans in everything but name.
There are known Unicursalist missionaries in the Federation, the Klingon Empire & the Orion caravans. The Gorn are no audience to such an idea. All other civilizations regard the Unicursalists as a momentary distraction and they are not taken seriously. Vulcans are receptive to Unicursalists but feel that the addition of religion attached to their ideology is gratuitous and flawed. Still, an Unicursalist can be just as logical as a Vulcan. Unicursalists counter that, unlike Vulcans, there is nothing wrong with expressing emotion so long as that emotion does not interfere with carrying out your duties as an Unicursalist. It is these emotions that enhances the unicursalist past the Vulcan and, thus, makes them superior when encountering new events that requires both intelligence and wisdom, for the Unicursalist has empathy and sympathy which Vulcans naturally lack through vigorous training of stoicism.
Unicursalists are more than willing to be stationed on "Peace planets" and other such projects and, initially, the Romulans obliged if only in an attempt to humiliate them. However, such passive tactics did not work and, if anything, the Unicursalists managed to convert a few other individuals towards their religion. As a result, Unicursalists are now "persona non grata" when it comes to being involved in such projects.
The Romulan government, as much as some in the government would like to, can't just kill them or outright oppress them; It would be the equivalent of a government oppressing an odd sect of Christianity. It is odd, it is vaguely based upon the religion that it branched from but it is harmless and the adherents do not advocate violence or revolution against the government in any way. There is no sense in "punching down" in this particular situation and the Romulan government is well aware of that.
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steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 8, 2020 6:54:11 GMT -7
A quick addition as I doubt that I will have time later. However...
Suppose you are a Klingon male and your bloodlust for caving in the skulls of other Klingon males is a bit lackluster. What do you do? Well, there's not a lot of options for you out there. "Scientist" is always an option but you pretty much hand your 'man card' into society and allow other males to snicker behind your back that you are less than heterosexual from now until you die. Even successful scientists are regarded as, "Yeah, he cured [fill in disease here] but he was always a little light in the loafers." You could simply have a macho occupation as, say, mechanic but even then you aren't exactly regarded as masculine. You'll be treated more like, "Yeah, he was a good mechanic, but if he was a real man, he would've been a warrior like us." You could be part of the religious establishment... But see 'scientist' above.
Is there even a single non-warrior occupation that allows Klingon males to retain their manliness while not having to gorge other Klingons' eyes out? Yes, yes there is.
Welcome to the life of military (or even civilian) space exploration. A life so dangerous and precarious that even warriors look towards that profession and go, "You know what? I'll just go back to starting bar fights instead."
Granted, this is not the area of space that borders the Federation, this is the area of space that only Klingons know about. This is the area of space where orbiting outposts are little more than empty cargo containers with porta-potties & vending machines bolted onto them.
Now, you would think that military space exploration would be manlier and, to a certain degree, you would be correct. But civilian space exploration is much more hazardous. Civilian exploration ships tend to have less shielding, less weaponry and are driven by profit rather than being the first to plant a flag on a planet and then thumping your chest like Tarzan. When the Klingon Navy wants to recruit members, they turn towards the civilian exploration sector and they like to point out that working for them is an upgrade because you'll finally be in ships that can defend themselves against something harsher than a passing asteroid.
Being in civilian exploration does have it's perks. First and foremost, if you can harvest or mine it before the military finds it, you win. All that the military really wants is the physical possession of the planet itself and the ability to say, "Oh, we can put a fort there. Good."
Granted, your life expectancy is about to be severely challenged if you embark upon a career as a civilian space explorer. These are not sturdy ships and the companies that employ you don't care about your comfort or livelihood. Be prepared for ships to fail spectacularly for a whole variety of reasons. Warp engines suddenly exploding because, you know, maintenance is expensive and they were doing quite fine a year or two ago. Sudden pressure losses or power failures because electrical equipment that hasn't been replaced or fixed in years suddenly give out. Accidentally running into pirates and criminals because, for some reason, they don't want you in their turf and don't trust that you'll just quietly turn around and never tell the authorities about bumping into them.
In all honesty, one of the least stressful situations for civilian explorers is finding new life and new civilizations because the life and civilization that they already have to deal with is far more burdensome.
If you get to your 20th anniversary in this field, buy a lottery ticket and bail out because you're one of the lucky few who can. Most don't; They either move straight to the military, go into the managerial branch (where they can watch the starships leave and not be on them) or just plain quit if they aren't dead first. And several do die or are just never heard from again as they go missing in outer space.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 9, 2020 10:11:41 GMT -7
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 9, 2020 11:51:35 GMT -7
steveDo the Andorians, Tellarites, Alpha Centaurans, Edoans and Caitans exist in your universe? Are they just races who, especially in the Andorians case, did not venture out too far into local space to help form the Federation, as shown in TV, and FASA?
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 10, 2020 6:40:18 GMT -7
Interesting thoughts about the military and civilian exploration efforts. When I played the RPG in the 90s, I ran a scenario where a Starfleet crew were working undercover in the Triangle. At one point, they were dealing with a Klingon merchant captain, and I displayed him as being as boisterous as the TNG Klingons were being shown on TV, just as an 'economic warrior' as it were. He might not hit you with a bat'leth, but haggling was interesting! So I can see where the exploration arms of your Klingon society would be dangerous for Klingons in their own way! And following on from this, just had the thought of the Klingon Ambassador from Star Trek IV, played brilliantly by John Schuck. Proving that Klingon diplomacy consists of more than just pointing a D-7 at you with fully armed disruptors!
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steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 10, 2020 13:26:59 GMT -7
steve Do the Andorians, Tellarites, Alpha Centaurans, Edoans and Caitans exist in your universe? Are they just races who, especially in the Andorians case, did not venture out too far into local space to help form the Federation, as shown in TV, and FASA? Nope. I was very much in an anti "Bumps on prosthetic mask" attitude back then. Also, as mentioned previously, I was always a bit curious why Klingons had ventured so far out but weren't diverse, same with the Romulans but the Federation had a bajillion different species but was barely larger than either of those civilizations. Also, it just didn't make much sense from a pragmatic standpoint: Would you really want all of those different species in the same starship? How could you be a doctor with all those different physiologies to worry about? All those different diseases? Something that doesn't affect humans might affect another species. What about cultural considerations? The color blue might not affect your species but it might mean death to another and inferiority to a third species and arrogance to a fourth. And what about height? And what about artificial gravity on a spaceship? We're used to "earth" gravity but that might be too light for Species X and might be too much for Species Y... How would that even work? Having only humans for the Federation also makes the inclusion of the Vulcans into the Federation more meaningful as they are truly a different species. Otherwise, it would be just one species to throw onto the pile of species that the Federation already had.
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steve
Commander
Posts: 537
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Post by steve on Jul 10, 2020 13:56:48 GMT -7
Any group, no matter how small, are never small enough to form a schism if they exist for long enough.
"Orbiteers" would like to think of themselves as the pragmatic application of "Spacesteading." Spacesteaders think of Orbiteers as nothing other than cheaters who have diluted the original principles of Spacesteading to the point of meaningless drivel. If you invite one of the two to a dinner party, it is best that you avoid inviting the other one as polite conversations between the two are rather short and end somewhat abruptly.
"Orbiteers" still believe in living in outer space on a stationary vessel that doesn't have it's own power and must gather that power through external sources. However, these vessels are either orbiting a planet or a sun. Therefore, they have ample access to both solar and/or gravitational forces that can easily supply a modest vessel with enough power to create adequate living conditions. If they are orbiting a planet, the amount of micro-asteroids that could be collected on a daily basis is more than sufficient to be harnessed to be converted into any sort of material one could imagine. Orbiteering is still considered "camping" but, instead of living in a tiny cloth tent, you've now upgraded yourself to a motorized RV with satellite television and a pull-out section that affords you a full-size dinette area as well.
Orbiteering is not new; In some form it has existed for almost as long as civilization has been in space itself. However, the practice has matured to a sophisticated degree where almost anyone can "get in" on the field with very little investment.
There are two types of Orbiteers: One that orbits a planet (or moon of a planet) and one that orbits the sun of a solar system but not in conjunction with a planet. There is no animosity between the two types and while they may not exchange presents during holidays, they are pleasant to one another and share notes on particular techniques to maximize their quality of life without sacrificing the core principle of having no independent internal power (one is, of course, allowed to store energy from outside sources but not self-generate such power).
The commercialization of orbiteering has occurred for quite some time and the most apt analogy is "camping"; There are many private companies that house orbiting facilities that one can reside upon during a vacation, mostly "get away from it all" styled vacations. There are countless "do-it-yourself" applications as well.
The Federation is somewhat hesitant to heartily endorse such a field; It has the potential to being abused by those who seek to avoid taxes, duties and other financial obligations based upon a static location. However, the field is quite robust with innovations, albeit mainly for the private sector, when it comes to low-energy human habitats. There are even emergency planning blueprints for such constructions in the event of natural disasters and the like.
There are colonies of enthusiasts but nothing too terribly organized; The Federation wants to ensure that you're paying all of your appropriate taxes, in full and on time.
Surprisingly, Vulcans appreciate orbiteering a bit more than spacesteading as it can be used for monastery-like accommodations that Vulcans are used to. Vulcans contribute a lot more to the orbiteer field than that of spacesteading.
The Romulans have something similar called the "LPOP challenge" or "Low Power Outpost challenge" but it's not quite the same: It's mainly a military-driven (although increasingly commercialized) contest to construct orbiting outposts using the lowest amounts of warp drive energy feasible.
The Klingons do not have any sort of direct comparables to Orbiteers or "LPOP." The closest that they would have are individual efforts with no amount of coordination or enthusiasm. After all, what good is an orbiting vessel that can not adequately defend itself from an armed space craft of some type?
The Orions and Gorn do not engage in such activities.
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Post by brickwall on Jul 10, 2020 14:32:38 GMT -7
Steve, I am beyond impressed regarding the complexity of your Trek Universe. Now with the Orbiteers...wow! Like me, it has been brewing for a long time like a well-crafted homemade beer or mead. Congratulations on everything so far!
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 10, 2020 18:59:17 GMT -7
steve Do the Andorians, Tellarites, Alpha Centaurans, Edoans and Caitans exist in your universe? Are they just races who, especially in the Andorians case, did not venture out too far into local space to help form the Federation, as shown in TV, and FASA? Nope. I was very much in an anti "Bumps on prosthetic mask" attitude back then. Also, as mentioned previously, I was always a bit curious why Klingons had ventured so far out but weren't diverse, same with the Romulans but the Federation had a bajillion different species but was barely larger than either of those civilizations. Also, it just didn't make much sense from a pragmatic standpoint: Would you really want all of those different species in the same starship? How could you be a doctor with all those different physiologies to worry about? All those different diseases? Something that doesn't affect humans might affect another species. What about cultural considerations? The color blue might not affect your species but it might mean death to another and inferiority to a third species and arrogance to a fourth. And what about height? And what about artificial gravity on a spaceship? We're used to "earth" gravity but that might be too light for Species X and might be too much for Species Y... How would that even work? Having only humans for the Federation also makes the inclusion of the Vulcans into the Federation more meaningful as they are truly a different species. Otherwise, it would be just one species to throw onto the pile of species that the Federation already had. As a follow on from my post about the founding member aliens, what about alien races that look human, and may not be Federation members in TOS, For example, the Capellans from "Friday's Child"? The Argelians from "Wolf in the Fold"? Or the inhabitants of Eminiar VII from "A Taste of Armageddon"? Plus, do you have any of the 'higher' races, you know, those glowing balls of light types that like to play with starship crews for fun, or for justice, or are pacifists?
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 10, 2020 19:02:48 GMT -7
Any group, no matter how small, are never small enough to form a schism if they exist for long enough. "Orbiteers" would like to think of themselves as the pragmatic application of "Spacesteading." Spacesteaders think of Orbiteers as nothing other than cheaters who have diluted the original principles of Spacesteading to the point of meaningless drivel. If you invite one of the two to a dinner party, it is best that you avoid inviting the other one as polite conversations between the two are rather short and end somewhat abruptly. "Orbiteers" still believe in living in outer space on a stationary vessel that doesn't have it's own power and must gather that power through external sources. However, these vessels are either orbiting a planet or a sun. Therefore, they have ample access to both solar and/or gravitational forces that can easily supply a modest vessel with enough power to create adequate living conditions. If they are orbiting a planet, the amount of micro-asteroids that could be collected on a daily basis is more than sufficient to be harnessed to be converted into any sort of material one could imagine. Orbiteering is still considered "camping" but, instead of living in a tiny cloth tent, you've now upgraded yourself to a motorized RV with satellite television and a pull-out section that affords you a full-size dinette area as well. Orbiteering is not new; In some form it has existed for almost as long as civilization has been in space itself. However, the practice has matured to a sophisticated degree where almost anyone can "get in" on the field with very little investment. There are two types of Orbiteers: One that orbits a planet (or moon of a planet) and one that orbits the sun of a solar system but not in conjunction with a planet. There is no animosity between the two types and while they may not exchange presents during holidays, they are pleasant to one another and share notes on particular techniques to maximize their quality of life without sacrificing the core principle of having no independent internal power (one is, of course, allowed to store energy from outside sources but not self-generate such power). The commercialization of orbiteering has occurred for quite some time and the most apt analogy is "camping"; There are many private companies that house orbiting facilities that one can reside upon during a vacation, mostly "get away from it all" styled vacations. There are countless "do-it-yourself" applications as well. The Federation is somewhat hesitant to heartily endorse such a field; It has the potential to being abused by those who seek to avoid taxes, duties and other financial obligations based upon a static location. However, the field is quite robust with innovations, albeit mainly for the private sector, when it comes to low-energy human habitats. There are even emergency planning blueprints for such constructions in the event of natural disasters and the like. There are colonies of enthusiasts but nothing too terribly organized; The Federation wants to ensure that you're paying all of your appropriate taxes, in full and on time. Surprisingly, Vulcans appreciate orbiteering a bit more than spacesteading as it can be used for monastery-like accommodations that Vulcans are used to. Vulcans contribute a lot more to the orbiteer field than that of spacesteading. The Romulans have something similar called the "LPOP challenge" or "Low Power Outpost challenge" but it's not quite the same: It's mainly a military-driven (although increasingly commercialized) contest to construct orbiting outposts using the lowest amounts of warp drive energy feasible. The Klingons do not have any sort of direct comparables to Orbiteers or "LPOP." The closest that they would have are individual efforts with no amount of coordination or enthusiasm. After all, what good is an orbiting vessel that can not adequately defend itself from an armed space craft of some type? The Orions and Gorn do not engage in such activities. Shouldn't the analogy be 'glamping'! But I like the difference between Spacesteading and Orbiteering!
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2020 2:48:26 GMT -7
As a follow on from my post about the founding member aliens, what about alien races that look human, and may not be Federation members in TOS, For example, the Capellans from "Friday's Child"? The Argelians from "Wolf in the Fold"? Or the inhabitants of Eminiar VII from "A Taste of Armageddon"? Plus, do you have any of the 'higher' races, you know, those glowing balls of light types that like to play with starship crews for fun, or for justice, or are pacifists? Within the Federation, there has been enough time for distinct civilizations (and some limited physiological, although mostly cosmetic, differences) to occur within Federation space. Without elaborating extensively, biological reproduction is still the norm in the Federation although there are extensive medical tests of the embryo and some very limited genetic engineering to avoid very obvious physiological defects as a result. Also, I thoroughly enjoy 'higher' life forms. You have to give starship captains something to occasionally encounter on those otherwise boring, mundane patrols and assignments... Because even in the TOS era, there are 'UFOs' and, just like our present time, we have very little means of knowing what they are or how to otherwise intelligently interact with them. There's still so much unexplored space...
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2020 2:56:16 GMT -7
Steve, I am beyond impressed regarding the complexity of your Trek Universe. Now with the Orbiteers...wow! Like me, it has been brewing for a long time like a well-crafted homemade beer or mead. Congratulations on everything so far! Thank you for the kind words. As I've written before, there's no point in all of this being just in my own head or scribbled down on paper in a box that only I have access to. If it helps other people kickstart their own imagination or adds a little extra spice to their campaigns, then that is better. While I'm sure that I could strip out the Star Trek IP and create "my own universe," such a project would be very exhausting and I'm sure there would be all sorts of hidden pitfalls to that endeavor. It's just easier to lay it all out there and let others pick through what they like & dislike and what they could use for their own projects. And the learning is reciprocal; For instance, I hadn't encountered Distributism before. I wonder what else I'll learn from my time here...
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 11, 2020 3:35:22 GMT -7
I want to elaborate on the previously-mentioned "LPOP challenge" that the Romulans have, if only because my alt-universe is Romulan-centric (and is a bit kinder to all of the civilizations, allowing them to be "good" in their own way).
The "LPOP challenge" stands for "Low Power OutPost challenge" and, like all competitions, started off with rather humble means and goals.
The Romulan Empire is no different than other civilizations; Militaries might want tanks and planes and weapons but they do not make THEIR OWN tanks and planes and weapons but contract private companies to perform the actual design and construction of such objects. Admittedly, ultra top secret technologies, such as the cloaking device, is kept well within the Romulan Star Navy and some other highly sensitive technologies are, indeed, built 'in-house' to avoid the potential of industrial espionage. Such in-house construction is often at a premium and so such construction is only for those technologies that are absolutely deemed essential.
As a result of the secrecy, being a RSN design engineer can be an exhausting, frustrating and very stressful occupation. It is not for the faint of heart. You walk into the job knowing that you will be spied upon constantly. If you have any fetishes or other personal weaknesses (a private desire for yodeling, for instance), they will be discovered and discovered in very short order... And it will be used against you, no matter how benign you think that they are... For this reason alone, there are not many who are willing to become a RSN design engineer, certainly when working for a private company is much more lucrative and with the prospect of not being followed or snooped upon every waking second of your day.
No one knows exactly when the "LPOP challenge" truly began but it likely had some it's origins in more pragmatic, low-security projects. All militaries want to maximize the efficiencies of their weapons and vehicles and the RSN is no different. Simply because a private company submits a bid to create a device for the military doesn't mean that the military's own engineers don't get to look over that proposal and make their own modifications. With being an RSN design engineer as stressful and secretive as it already is, that doesn't mean that there can't be some amount of 'water cooler talk' or jovial design sketches passed amongst one another in their spare moments. Even leadership understands that, on occasion, everyone needs to relax and smile a bit without worrying about being shoved into a black van and disappearing for the rest of all existence.
The "LPOP challenge" first emerged as such about sixty years ago as an informal contest between RSN design engineers, likely around the time when the second generation of warp engines for the Romulan Empire were being constructed. A glut of first-generation warp engines, now no longer desirable, emerged onto the marketplace without any prominent projects for them to be designed with. What could these now technologically-inferior engines still be used for? And thus, the challenge began.
As with all traditions, informal challenges became larger, more popular, and began leaking out of the RSN and into civilian life. At first, the RSN frowned upon any distraction from official duties but leadership also enjoys morale boosters and especially amongst a profession that is difficult to fill positions for. It also enjoyed that the engineers were discovering fairly creative ways of using otherwise obsolete technology which meant some obvious cost-savings for a governmental organization dependent upon politicians for their budgetary concerns.
The "LPOP challenge" finally became a formal, marketable non-classified entity around forty years ago and also became a "military vs. civilian" challenge around the same time. Hey, we're ending the production of this warp engine; Can you beat military designers in making an outpost that can do 'this' with it? The challenge grew with each passing year and is fairly well-known amongst engineers at this point. If you're a teenager in the Romulans Empire and are an aspiring engineer of any sort (electrical, mechanical, so forth), you've heard of the challenge. If you aren't into engineering, aren't an aspiring cadet for the military... You might have heard of the challenge but probably haven't.
There's some lamentation from RSN engineers (and some leadership) that the challenge has gotten too big and unwieldly but the positives far outweight the negatives. It's an absolute recruitment boon for the RSN (especially for engineers) and allows for good public relations. A majority of RSN leadership doesn't mind because it's not about sensitive or secretive technology. There's some pragmatic application to the challenge with innovations that can be brought into current technologies. RSN leadership also gets in on the act with some self-deprecating humor, with some of the prizes being that RSN leadership (low-level leadership, admittedly, as Admirals and Vice-Admirals politely make themselves unavailable) sometimes live in these contraptions to test themselves out. However, on rare occasion, a retiring Admiral or Vice-Admiral might make themselves available to sleep inside of one for an evening or two (with appropriate security, of course, because they ARE an Admiral or Vice-Admiral).
There have been obvious civilian and commercial applications to the contest, with several of the designs being modified for commercial and civilian production. While the contest itself hasn't been an engine for the economy, it certainly hasn't hurt.
Other challenges have been derived from this one but they aren't as popular or well known, both derived from within the RSN and from the civilian sector... But that's for another day.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 11, 2020 5:22:46 GMT -7
As a follow on from my post about the founding member aliens, what about alien races that look human, and may not be Federation members in TOS, For example, the Capellans from "Friday's Child"? The Argelians from "Wolf in the Fold"? Or the inhabitants of Eminiar VII from "A Taste of Armageddon"? Plus, do you have any of the 'higher' races, you know, those glowing balls of light types that like to play with starship crews for fun, or for justice, or are pacifists? Within the Federation, there has been enough time for distinct civilizations (and some limited physiological, although mostly cosmetic, differences) to occur within Federation space. Without elaborating extensively, biological reproduction is still the norm in the Federation although there are extensive medical tests of the embryo and some very limited genetic engineering to avoid very obvious physiological defects as a result. Also, I thoroughly enjoy 'higher' life forms. You have to give starship captains something to occasionally encounter on those otherwise boring, mundane patrols and assignments... Because even in the TOS era, there are 'UFOs' and, just like our present time, we have very little means of knowing what they are or how to otherwise intelligently interact with them. There's still so much unexplored space... So are you saying that, if you used them in your universe, the Capellans or Argelians or others are human civilisations that evolved from early space missions outside of Federation/Starfleet influence? Eminiar seems separate if used as they had that 500 year old war. Or have you ignored all of the human-looking aliens races that they used on TOS, but used others of your own creation? Don't mean to seem a pest, you've just postulated an interesting universe, as well as this variant, and many questions arise from that! Did you use any of the original 'higher' races, or create any of your own? I want to elaborate on the previously-mentioned "LPOP challenge" that the Romulans have, if only because my alt-universe is Romulan-centric (and is a bit kinder to all of the civilizations, allowing them to be "good" in their own way). The "LPOP challenge" stands for "Low Power OutPost challenge" and, like all competitions, started off with rather humble means and goals. The Romulan Empire is no different than other civilizations; Militaries might want tanks and planes and weapons but they do not make THEIR OWN tanks and planes and weapons but contract private companies to perform the actual design and construction of such objects. Admittedly, ultra top secret technologies, such as the cloaking device, is kept well within the Romulan Star Navy and some other highly sensitive technologies are, indeed, built 'in-house' to avoid the potential of industrial espionage. Such in-house construction is often at a premium and so such construction is only for those technologies that are absolutely deemed essential. As a result of the secrecy, being a RSN design engineer can be an exhausting, frustrating and very stressful occupation. It is not for the faint of heart. You walk into the job knowing that you will be spied upon constantly. If you have any fetishes or other personal weaknesses (a private desire for yodeling, for instance), they will be discovered and discovered in very short order... And it will be used against you, no matter how benign you think that they are... For this reason alone, there are not many who are willing to become a RSN design engineer, certainly when working for a private company is much more lucrative and with the prospect of not being followed or snooped upon every waking second of your day. No one knows exactly when the "LPOP challenge" truly began but it likely had some it's origins in more pragmatic, low-security projects. All militaries want to maximize the efficiencies of their weapons and vehicles and the RSN is no different. Simply because a private company submits a bid to create a device for the military doesn't mean that the military's own engineers don't get to look over that proposal and make their own modifications. With being an RSN design engineer as stressful and secretive as it already is, that doesn't mean that there can't be some amount of 'water cooler talk' or jovial design sketches passed amongst one another in their spare moments. Even leadership understands that, on occasion, everyone needs to relax and smile a bit without worrying about being shoved into a black van and disappearing for the rest of all existence. The "LPOP challenge" first emerged as such about sixty years ago as an informal contest between RSN design engineers, likely around the time when the second generation of warp engines for the Romulan Empire were being constructed. A glut of first-generation warp engines, now no longer desirable, emerged onto the marketplace without any prominent projects for them to be designed with. What could these now technologically-inferior engines still be used for? And thus, the challenge began. As with all traditions, informal challenges became larger, more popular, and began leaking out of the RSN and into civilian life. At first, the RSN frowned upon any distraction from official duties but leadership also enjoys morale boosters and especially amongst a profession that is difficult to fill positions for. It also enjoyed that the engineers were discovering fairly creative ways of using otherwise obsolete technology which meant some obvious cost-savings for a governmental organization dependent upon politicians for their budgetary concerns. The "LPOP challenge" finally became a formal, marketable non-classified entity around forty years ago and also became a "military vs. civilian" challenge around the same time. Hey, we're ending the production of this warp engine; Can you beat military designers in making an outpost that can do 'this' with it? The challenge grew with each passing year and is fairly well-known amongst engineers at this point. If you're a teenager in the Romulans Empire and are an aspiring engineer of any sort (electrical, mechanical, so forth), you've heard of the challenge. If you aren't into engineering, aren't an aspiring cadet for the military... You might have heard of the challenge but probably haven't. There's some lamentation from RSN engineers (and some leadership) that the challenge has gotten too big and unwieldly but the positives far outweight the negatives. It's an absolute recruitment boon for the RSN (especially for engineers) and allows for good public relations. A majority of RSN leadership doesn't mind because it's not about sensitive or secretive technology. There's some pragmatic application to the challenge with innovations that can be brought into current technologies. RSN leadership also gets in on the act with some self-deprecating humor, with some of the prizes being that RSN leadership (low-level leadership, admittedly, as Admirals and Vice-Admirals politely make themselves unavailable) sometimes live in these contraptions to test themselves out. However, on rare occasion, a retiring Admiral or Vice-Admiral might make themselves available to sleep inside of one for an evening or two (with appropriate security, of course, because they ARE an Admiral or Vice-Admiral). There have been obvious civilian and commercial applications to the contest, with several of the designs being modified for commercial and civilian production. While the contest itself hasn't been an engine for the economy, it certainly hasn't hurt. Other challenges have been derived from this one but they aren't as popular or well known, both derived from within the RSN and from the civilian sector... But that's for another day. I'm going to speculate that, perhaps, there may be a civilian 'space race' challenge potentially in the future? Am I close?
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steve
Commander
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Post by steve on Jul 12, 2020 4:03:08 GMT -7
The Klingon Empire, in this alt-universe, is far more fractured than in other renditions. It has become more cohesive as a result of wars with the Federation and the Romulans (both of which they regard as defeats and humiliating ones at that). However, the divisions emerge once the fighting subsides and, if anything, the divisions only run deeper afterward.
The regional navies, as a result, are far more regarded than the navy that represents the entire empire. The navy that represents the entire empire, The Imperial Klingon Navy, is begrudgingly funded by the regional powers if only because it represents another wall in which to defend themselves from another bruising conflict with the Federation or the Romulans.
The regional navies are still responsible for exploration of unknown space & the immediate preservation of the region that they represent. The Imperial Navy, on the other hand, is strictly for the purposes of the entire empire. "Landlocked" (or "spacelocked") regions of Klingon territory that no longer have access to unknown space have since diverted more of their resources to other functions of their navies or to the Imperial Navy. There is no compensation from the Empire or other regions for having the misfortune of being a region that is spacelocked out of unknown space. The attitude is "Pry our territory from our control or quit complaining."
But some of these spacelocked regions have created a third option: Commercial (aka 'civilian') space exploration companies.
Simply because Klingons enjoy bashing in each other's skulls does not mean that capitalism doesn't exist within the Empire. If anything, capitalism in certain industries is fairly robust and it is of a breed that could be regarded as "unregulated" or "laissez-faire." The commercial space exploration industry is one of industries.
Regional Klingon navies must operate within a budget, must like any other organization. There is only so much time, money & material resources to conduct exploration duties into unknown space. The result is that, more often than not, these regional navies turn to private industry to conduct these duties so that they may devote more of their budget towards defending their borders against other regions. A back turned against another region is simply an opportunity to be stabbed in the back.
Commercial exploration companies, though, have murky origins and even murkier alliances. Those regions that are spacelocked out of having borders with unknown space are often in control of many of these commercial companies and are beholden to those who control them. For obvious reasons, their allegiances are unclear and deceptive. While these companies may work for one region, they are loyal to another. They will often claim to find a certain amount of material for the region that employs them but then report far more accurate (and lucrative) results to the region that controls the company.
There are, of course, some fringe benefits to being spacelocked. First and foremost, your region won't be the one first attacked by an unknown power (such as the Romulans or Federation). Also, it forces that region to become more efficient with the usage of their existing resources. If you don't have an unlimited supply, or the potential for an unlimited supply, of anything, you begin to ration that supply far more intelligently and invest in utilizing that resource as best you can. There are legitimate trade deals with other regions that are taken more seriously as legitimate dependencies increase, along with an emphasis on diplomacy and negotiation.
Yet the appeal of clandestine goals for these commercial exploration companies is often overwhelming for those regions that do not have free access to unknown space. Why buy material when you can just "steal" it from unknown space, right under the noses of your adversaries?
In recent times, both the regional navies and the Imperial Navy has begun to stiffen their enforcement of such commercial entities but it is a "cat-and-mouse" game that they perpetually lose and one that must be delicately balanced with reality in mind. Banning such commercial entities means that regional navies must perform the legwork of exploration themselves which is both costly and demoralizing for a race that never dismisses the opportunity to engage in a bar fight. Allowing them to continue with their laissez-faire ways means losing out on vital resources needed to expand their territory. And any compromises between the two hardly ever resolves the concerns of either party and is seen as simply wasting resources.
With conundrums such as these, who needs the Federation and the Romulans?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 13, 2020 11:16:17 GMT -7
Genetic engineering in the alt-universe depends upon which civilization that you examine.
The Gorn, naturally, have no qualms with genetic engineering in the slightest. They regard sentient life differently than the other civilizations. Individual lives are mostly meaningless to them. Individual Gorns might feel a slight bit of remorse for other individual Gorns but those feelings often subside rather quickly. The Gorn do not have personalities on the same scale as other sentient beings from other civilizations might. If anything, a Gorn might feel some sense of loss only because there is now uncertainty as to whom will replace that individual Gorn. If the Gorn can engineer a faster, smarter, longer-lasting version of themselves, they will do so without hesitation.
Must break this off. More later.
I've returned. More stuff below.
Except to the Romulans, the Gorn have not been forthcoming in exchanging their genetic engineering prowess with other civilizations. Through some shrewd bartering, the Orions have received a little bit of it. The Vulcans and Klingons are not welcome to such technological gifts regardless of what they say to the Gorn. The Gorn are not automatically against giving the Federation some of the technology. The Federation has not exactly gone out of it's way to ask for it or even incentivize any negotiations for it, either.
Of bio-technology to have originated from the Gorn, the Romulans have received the mass bulk of such gifts. Although they were not entirely receptive towards such technologies, the Romulans have since decided to invest substantially in those gifts to see if could yield some meaningful results. The rationale is the fear that if other civilizations are dabbling in the biotech industry, so too must the Romulans in order "to keep up with the Joneses." The Romulans have a centralized location for their biotech experiments, some of which are not entirely ethical or moral. So far, the yield on these gifts has not been spectacular but they have been substantial. Of course, the experiments that have been conducted thus far could easily amount to a scandal and so the experiments are kept quite secretive.
The Orions are somewhat interested in genetic engineering if only to stave of hundreds of years (or more) of spaceflight damaging their bodies. They are interested only to the extent of fending off the effects of artificial gravity and perpetually living on board spacecrafts. Of what they've gained from the Gorn, the Orion haven't found particularly useful but at least they have it and, they presume (correctly) that the Federation and the Klingons do not. They suspect (again, correctly), that the Romulans have a lot of the technology (it is no secret that the Gorn and the Romulans are allies) but they do not realize that the Romulans are actually experimenting with it to the extent that they have.
The Vulcans are interested in genetic engineering and have mostly created their own technology. They've attempted to negotiate with the Gorn for their technology but such negotiations have gone nowhere. Vulcans have little problem with genetic alteration to stave off diseases, birth defects and the like although cosmetic alteration for purely superficial reasons is just not "logical." The Vulcans' willingness to use genetic engineering is in contrast to the Federation's overall position of "use it only when absolutely necessary and only to the point where it is needed" and it is one point of many in terms of friction between the two cultures.
The Federation, for their part, no longer has an active, vibrant genetic engineering culture. Some independent research remains and there is very basic, elemental research on the governmental level but nothing in scope to what the Romulans are doing. Genetic engineering is somewhat taboo in the Federation and most parts of the Federation frown on such activities unless, as written before, used only when absolutely necessary and only to the point where it is needed.
The Klingons are just not interested in the high-level genetic engineering industry. Those who punch harder will spread their genes more than those who punch softer. Superior people spread superior genes. Why need a laboratory for those results when there are ample bar fights that will separate the men from the boys? Beyond fundamental genetic engineering technology, there is no governmental efforts at advancing the industry and it is left to only a handful of independent, commercialized firms. Even then, genetic engineering is often viewed as "cheating" within the culture and frowned upon.
I'll probably expand upon this topic later.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 13, 2020 12:22:28 GMT -7
Genetic engineering in the alt-universe depends upon which civilization that you examine. The Gorn, naturally, have no qualms with genetic engineering in the slightest. They regard sentient life differently than the other civilizations. Individual lives are mostly meaningless to them. Individual Gorns might feel a slight bit of remorse for other individual Gorns but those feelings often subside rather quickly. The Gorn do not have personalities on the same scale as other sentient beings from other civilizations might. If anything, a Gorn might feel some sense of loss only because there is now uncertainty as to whom will replace that individual Gorn. If the Gorn can engineer a faster, smarter, longer-lasting version of themselves, they will do so without hesitation. Must break this off. More later. Did the Cestus III incident between a Federation and Gorn starship take place in some form in your universe?
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 24, 2020 11:22:52 GMT -7
steveOne thing I'm really curious about. How much of the official FASA Trek starship designs did you use in your alternate universe? Did you use them all, with details changed, or pick and choose? Plus, did you design your own? Questions below include... 1) With the Klingons being a bit different in your universe, how many FASA ships did you use to supplement the D-7 class? I'm really interested to hear what you say here due to your separate Imperial and regional navies described above! 2) And with your Federation, if it's just Humans and Vulcans, I take it that the Andorian designs like the Andor and Thufir classes might have had their history changed to be Human designs? Did you still use lasers and accelerator cannons being upgraded to phasers and photon torpedoes? Or did you have any newer different technology not seen in TOS or the FASA version? 3) You've said that the Romulans had the cloaking device more intricately linked to shields and engines. That's obviously different. But what ship designs from FASA did you use? Presumably, no technology swap to the Klingons, so no V-11 Stormbird variants of the D-7 I presume? 4) The really different one I can see is the Orions with their caravans in your universe. Are they standard sized ships, like the Wanderer and Lightning classes, or much larger designs? I've seen a design posted by someone who frequented the Yahoo FASA groups before he passed away, which was a large, kilometres long design, only six or so were made in his estimation. Are any of your Orion designs like this? 5) And do your Gorn still use the giant wedge designs that FASA used? Or did you go with other designs, maybe the SFB minis?
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 24, 2020 13:14:47 GMT -7
steve One thing I'm really curious about. How much of the official FASA Trek starship designs did you use in your alternate universe? Did you use them all, with details changed, or pick and choose? Plus, did you design your own? Questions below include... 1) With the Klingons being a bit different in your universe, how many FASA ships did you use to supplement the D-7 class? I'm really interested to hear what you say here due to your separate Imperial and regional navies described above! 2) And with your Federation, if it's just Humans and Vulcans, I take it that the Andorian designs like the Andor and Thufir classes might have had their history changed to be Human designs? Did you still use lasers and accelerator cannons being upgraded to phasers and photon torpedoes? Or did you have any newer different technology not seen in TOS or the FASA version? 3) You've said that the Romulans had the cloaking device more intricately linked to shields and engines. That's obviously different. But what ship designs from FASA did you use? Presumably, no technology swap to the Klingons, so no V-11 Stormbird variants of the D-7 I presume? 4) The really different one I can see is the Orions with their caravans in your universe. Are they standard sized ships, like the Wanderer and Lightning classes, or much larger designs? I've seen a design posted by someone who frequented the Yahoo FASA groups before he passed away, which was a large, kilometres long design, only six or so were made in his estimation. Are any of your Orion designs like this? 5) And do your Gorn still use the giant wedge designs that FASA used? Or did you go with other designs, maybe the SFB minis? 1). I never developed the regional Klingon navies & the Imperial Klingon Navy in any great, granular detail. For good storytelling purposes, such designs would be drastically different so that the viewer or reader could instantly tell them apart. However, in my more drab, pragmatic world, there aren't any huge "this navy has their bridge underneath the warp engines while this navy designs all of their warships to look like umbrellas!" design philosophies. If anything, the constant skirmishes and tussles from internal conflicts have all rendered the ships to be pretty similar to one another with only minor, cosmetic differences. I will write that, for a Klingon, being in the Imperial Navy is a bit of a downer. The real prestige is in being in the regional navies. As an Imperial Navy crewmember, it's the equivalent of fans of differing sports teams being forced to work together. I know the Internet is international so here's my attempt at an international analogy: Imagine being on a football team where some of the members are from Chelsea, others from Manchester City and still others are from Arsenal. That's what it's like being on an Imperial Navy ship. Now, if you're on the regional navy ship, those are all guys that you grew up with, had bar fights together with, drank yourselves under the table with, had belching contests with... Those are 'your' guys. You trust them with your life and they return the favor. With the Imperial Navy... Where are their loyalties? You just don't know. 2). In terms of designs, I'm not enslaved to the classic "saucer / Enterprise design elements" but I don't veer too radically off of them either. I've never been a good artist in that aspect and I just designed ships without drawing them out. I will say that I've never been a fan of "the warp engines need to be as far away from each other as possible!" rule and, in my very limited artistic ability, designed ships where the engines were far closer together. In terms of tech, I don't really change anything. Again, I fall back upon the "it was my exclusive little universe, those are the rules and whatever excuses I need to paper over the cracks I'll use" rule. I'm sure I could create some wonderful, elaborate explanation for why 'this' turned out this way and 'that' turned out that way but I designed the playground up just enough for myself to have fun and left the details aside for when I had to really address them. 3). When it comes to the "bird" design of the Romulans... I was just never a fan. I think that the TOS Romulan Bird of Prey was fairly generic enough but some of the FASA designs that mimic birds or that Star Trek III design... As "cool" as they are, it just didn't fit into my more "mundane," workman-like world. One thing that I tried to incorporate into a lot of my worlds (Star Trek included) is the abandonment of "windows" on starships. They are useless; In space, you see absolutely nothing 99.9999999% of the time. The only reason why we put windows on stuff is because all of our stuff orbits something and, at the time, it was cheaper then monitors and cameras. In my world, there are hardly any windows on starships; They've all been replaced by cameras on the outside that display stuff on monitors on the inside. Yes, the Klingons & Romulans do not exchange tech; In fact, I should write at some point about the "faux" Romulan region that the Romulan have with the Klingons. 4). I kept the Orions philosophy of "whatever works" in terms of design. Different caravans have different philosophies but, of course, a lot of caravans don't want to "roll their own" (and some can't afford to) and simply buy from others or buy the blueprints and build from that so there is a little bit of sameness. One concept that I found suspiciously absent from Star Trek was the concept of the carrier and so caravans are almost like "carriers" where there are dozens / hundreds of little Class 2/3 ships that can swarm a much larger ship and render it gone within moments as opposed to the "battleship model" of Star Trek where it's basically space battleships duking it out with each other. As for gargantuan-sized ships, in my mind, Orions don't have gargantuan ships but they have a lot of ships all in a caravan. Some ships are larger than others but there's no "that's not a moon, that's a battle station"-sized ship. 5). I don't remember anything radical; Again, I enjoy designing the ship's specs and the fluff surrounding those specs but I am a lousy starship artist and never had any real thoughts on the topic. The Gorn, in my universe, are highly pragmatic and their forte is in biotech, not mechanics. They have stuff that's good enough for them and good enough to repel a modest attack. The wedge looks utilitarian enough and so I wouldn't mind if I adopted that look for these guys as well. Enjoyed the questions. Keep them coming. Nothing is set in stone. That's the beauty of making imaginary worlds and playing in them.
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Post by trynda1701 on Jul 25, 2020 6:59:06 GMT -7
For your Klingons, if you had lots of minis, you could have two different colour schemes then. If we did any Klingon vs Imperial Klingon States scenarios, we could do so. My Klingon minis were a pale metallic green (see my minis thread) and we had others from our GM who had painted his Klingons in a metallic slate grey. On that point, did you have any renegade Klingons like the IKS in the Triangle. I presume if you did, it wouldn't have been the same as the IKS situation in original FASA. Or was it?
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steve
Commander
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Post by steve on Jul 27, 2020 16:59:49 GMT -7
For your Klingons, if you had lots of minis, you could have two different colour schemes then. If we did any Klingon vs Imperial Klingon States scenarios, we could do so. My Klingon minis were a pale metallic green (see my minis thread) and we had others from our GM who had painted his Klingons in a metallic slate grey. On that point, did you have any renegade Klingons like the IKS in the Triangle. I presume if you did, it wouldn't have been the same as the IKS situation in original FASA. Or was it? I'm really rusty when it comes to FASA history with the IKS. Remember how I thought that the FASA map of the known Star Trek universe looked? And that the map was reversed and twisted for nearly 3 decades in my mind? Had it not been for a headache (which is still lingering but much better than it was about 2 hours ago), I would've written about a known area in my alt-verse that is sort of the equivalent of the "Neutral Zone" between Klingons & Romulans. Last we left, when the Romulans defeated the Klingons, the Klingons were gobsmacked about what to do over it. If you can't beat them... Ask them to join you? And that's essentially what they did; They made room at the table (albeit, just a little bit) for the Romulans. As a result, the Romulans are, at least technically and on paper, one of the "regions" in Klingon space. Granted, it's an incredibly awkward "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" scenario because Klingon philosophy & Romulan philosophy... They don't mix. Klingons need no incentives to start a bar fight and Romulans need an incentive just to walk into the bar. To be fair, the Romulans have no real say or pull in Klingon politics whatsoever. The regions of Klingon space that had to give up territory so that the Romulans could have their own mini-region were (and still, for the most part) not happy with their next door neighbors. It's not all fun and games for the Romulans, either. Let's start with the basics: If you are a resident of the Romulan-Occupied Zone (ROZ), you just can't hop back and forth between Romulan space, Klingon space, and this special ROZ however you want. If you're a Romulan, you have to ask for specific permission to exit the zone AND GET IT FROM BOTH SIDES before you do so. If you are a Klingon in the ROZ, it's the same deal but the Klingons almost rarely do not grant you permission, ie It's a one way trip and you've now arrived at your destination permanently. Why are there Klingons in the ROZ? Well, some Klingons just didn't want to leave. Also, some Klingons (a select few) are genuinely intrigued by the Romulans. If you're a Klingon woman, you really don't have a ton of options available in Klingon society to begin with and, at the very least, being in the ROZ is sort of like still being in Klingon society except you aren't. A lot of the Klingon-Romulan hybrids who exist are, unsurprisingly, right here in the ROZ. As for Romulans, it's been a few generations now and the "native" Romulans in the ROZ are a bit different than Romulans in the Romulan Empire. First and foremost, they're a bit on the rough and violent side. While they don't start the bar fights, they don't bat an eyelash in trying to end them. If you're a Romulan in the Romulan Empire and want to hire security personnel who look mean and intimidating, you've got a prime market with the Romulans from the ROZ. Romulan males in the ROZ tend to have a lot of facial hair and not the simple "pencil mustache" variety but the type that makes you look meaner and more masculine. If you're a "native" Romulan female in the ROZ, you tend to have quite the athletic physique on you. You may not be violent but you are, at least, engaged in sports (or "sport" for the international audience) and are pretty good at it. The ROZ is not "self-sufficient" and is mainly dependent upon Romulan imports for most of their high-end goods. Think of it as the equivalent of, say, the state of Alaska: Yes, it tries to have it's own home-grown industries but the economies of scale just aren't there. Sure, there's a guy who has a tomato farm but that tomato farm can't supply everyone who wants tomatoes and certainly can't fill orders for all products that require tomatoes (such as a ketchup factory). There are also some Klingon imports as well but, for the most part, people in the ROZ just like Romulan stuff better than the Klingon stuff (and that includes the Klingons but don't tell anyone!). Klingons generally have a perverse fascination with the ROZ and don't know whether it was a really good idea or not to have the Romulans have a seat at the proverbial table. On the one hand, a bit of the Romulans have rubbed off on the Klingons: Being a bit conniving is now socially acceptable and who doesn't love the occasional bout of diplomacy resolving disputes rather than the usual smackdown? On the other, in a future war, Klingons contend that now they're 'breeding' a Romulan culture just as bloodthirsty and violent as they are and, in the back of their minds, they don't like that; They don't want Romulans who are both violent and conniving. It's not all happiness in the Romulan Empire either; Remember the Hunnarians? the ultra-military guys who nearly defeated Romulans long ago and started the Romulans down the ultra-paranoid path? If the Hunnarians still exist (and many, many Romulans secretly fear that they do), they would look kinda-sorta like the Romulans in the ROZ and that's not a good thing. It's one thing to think of the Hunnarians being in unexplored space, just waiting for the chance to strike the Romulans again but it's entirely another thing to be actively growing those same types of Romulans right in their own backyard! It's the reason why the Romulans really don't want to give the ROZ a whole lot of influence in Romulan territory either and that's creating a bit of friction with the Romulans in the ROZ because they're all like, "Dude, we're Romulans! What's the deal?! We have to act like this because our neighbors start bar fights because they're bored! Chill! We're just as paranoid and cunning as you are, we just do more push-ups than you. That's all!" BTW, for anyone wondering if there's a Federation-Occupied Zone in Klingon space because the Feds defeated the Klingons? No. First and foremost, the Klingons stopped doing the "Hey, they defeated us, let's give them a tiny portion of our land" with the Romulans. as of right now, it's a toss-up in Klingon society if the the whole ROZ was such a good idea and they are not going to repeat that again. Also, they psychologically feel as though they can defeat the Romulans and so giving them the territory isn't really a big concession because they feel as though they could take it back if they really, really wanted to. With the Feds, it's different. There's no love lost there. Unlike the Romulans who were smarty-pants crafty, the Feds showed the Klingons that they could go toe-to-toe with them and knock out just as many teeth as the Klingons knocked out theirs. Psychologically, the Feds proved that they could be wolves, too, and that secretly frightens the Klingons. Feds get no territory. Anyway, that's the little article (which turned out to be a little larger) about that small part of my alt-verse.
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steve
Commander
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Post by steve on Sept 10, 2020 16:43:49 GMT -7
It's been awhile. I'll be the first to admit that. However, I've been having thoughts lately about something and I figured that I would share it with everyone in the event that they would want to use it in their own universes as well.
It's about how to deliver a package to a solar system. Let me explain.
Suppose you want to deliver a package to a solar system from outside of that solar system, say, from another solar system. What would be the best way to do so?
I'm figuring that you would not want to enter the solar system directly. First off, it's your solar system and why should everyone just wander into your solar system uninvited? That's just plain rude. Also, suppose you're a package delivery spaceship. It'd take too much time to enter the solar system, drop off the package and then leave the solar system. What if you had multiple packages to different planets inside of the solar system? Do you visit each and every planet and drop off the packages like some intergalactic Santa Claus? No, you wouldn't. That'd be a colossal waste of time.
So I figured out a system for how to deliver a package to a solar system. By all means, poke as many holes as you want into it because, someday, we'll be using this system in the very far distant future.
First and foremost, I think that it's rude for just anyone to wander into your solar system. That's just bad manners. It's your solar system, it's your rules. Sure, the military can do whatever they want because they're the ones with the guns but, besides them, screw you, you're not getting into our solar system unless we invite you in.
Two, suppose that you're a cargo ship (as before). You're busy, you've got deliveries to make, you don't have time to go to X planet in X solar system to drop of X packages. All you want to do is drop your load (that's bad phrasing but you're the one with the dirty mind so that's on you) and get out of there. If you're a smart solar system, you have a drop off point, a space mailbox out in front of your solar system house.
But one mailbox won't suffice because solar systems are round or round-ish or oval-ish and cargo ships can arrive from any direction. Therefore, you have a series of space mailboxes (let's call them outposts or space bases or whatever, welcome centers) that are spaced equally around your solar system. They're stationary; They're not planets that orbit around anything. Poor solar systems will have three mailboxes in an equilateral triangle and then you get to a square with four mailboxes, et cetera so forth until you get up to six mailboxes in a hexagon. Seven mailboxes is just stupid; Now you're just pretending to be important.
So you have these mailboxes out in front of your solar system and that's what the cargo ships aim for and if it's slightly inconvenient for them to course correct, screw them, they have to do a little bit of work in delivering the package. All they have to do is drop the thing off and leave so they should make the effort to fly to the nearest mailbox. And they do.
So the cargo ship goes to one of the mailboxes, drops off their stuff and leaves. Their job is done. Now what?
Now you have another ship that's going to each of these mailboxes in a never-ending loop and picking up (and dropping off) stuff. That's all it does: Goes to mailbox, picks up stuff, puts in stuff & leaves. Why a ship and not the outermost planet? Because planets on the outer edge of a solar system are slow; Pluto takes forever to go around the Sun and, yes, I know it's called a dwarf planet or a minor planet nowadays. I don't care, it's a planet to me. I grew up thinking that it's a planet and, as far as I'm concerned, it's a planet. I'm not going to be the one telling it that it got a demotion.
So you have a ship that's going around to the mailboxes and picking up and dropping off stuff. At some point, it has to drop off the stuff that it collects and so, whenever it passes the outermost planet, it drops all of the stuff off there and, naturally picks up stuff from there as well to deposit to the mailboxes.
And then, from there, stuff just naturally drifts down to the planet where the package needs to get to. The reverse would happen for a package leaving the solar system.
Suppose you had a special delivery package. Obviously, maybe there'd be a special shuttle right at the mailbox that does same-day trips back and forth from the mailbox to the planet of choice but that would be wicked expensive. However, there would be wealthy people in the future stupid enough to pay for it so you may as well have that service.
At any rate, I thought that I'd share that in case anyone needed it.
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