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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 15:29:11 GMT -7
Oh... cowboy40 . Don't dignify Gorn with a real reply. His only reason for being in this forum is to be a total jerk so he can get a rise out of people. You're way to good a dude for his garbage. The guy is just a prejudiced troll who will badger you forever if you even hint at having any religious belief, so I'm begging you to drop this thread like the hot turd that it is, and run for the door. You're a damned sight better than he'll ever be, and if you stick around on this thread he'll go to great lengths to prove it.
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Post by cowboy40 on Aug 17, 2017 15:47:18 GMT -7
Oh... cowboy40 . Don't dignify Gorn with a real reply. His only reason for being in this forum is to be a total jerk so he can get a rise out of people. You're way to good a dude for his garbage. The guy is just a prejudiced troll who will badger you forever if you even hint at having any religious belief, so I'm begging you to drop this thread like the hot turd that it is, and run for the door. You're a damned sight better than he'll ever be, and if you stick around on this thread he'll go to great lengths to prove it. This i know, but Gorn won't disturb me, simply because i believe all men have their right to think and practice or not practice their faith as they wish...some people are just well....people...it is his right to think as he does...as we all do...
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Post by Gorn on Aug 17, 2017 16:35:26 GMT -7
Well, cowboy, if you think that one needs religion to have a moral path, you're absolutely wrong. And that is the implication of a religious system that has an invisible magic skydaddy creating it. Buddhism may not have a named deity, but if it is a system, then it had to be imposed by some being. Given that you felt it was missing, it is non-sequitur that you point out following Buddhism which doesn't have one. There is definitely such a thing as coincidence. It's simple probability. I don't know what "evidence" you claim that the Universe didn't come from a BB (just as rabid fails to have done as well,) considering a Flat Universe (therefore a Universe from NOTHING,) has been proven to billionth decimal precision. Life is NOT a "random meeting of proteins"; it is organic chemistry proceeding in millions of gallons of water, over millions of years, in incremental steps. Here's the process for those unclear: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1iwLqM2t0&t=1s
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Post by cowboy40 on Aug 17, 2017 17:18:31 GMT -7
We all have the right to practice our faith, or the lack thereof, in our own ways...this was granted to us by our own agency (or freedom or choice or well), and the 1st amendment to the Constitution of the US. As i claim my agency in a faith in a God, i also recognize others agency in not recognizing God. I stated my faith and beliefs.
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Post by edgeworthy on Aug 17, 2017 17:23:01 GMT -7
How about just assuming that the Federation worships at the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Which actually has more empirical evidence than 99% of religions.
(One of its central tenets is that Global Warming is caused by a lack of seafaring Pirates! The proof is that Somalia has the highest number of Pirates, and the lowest Carbon Emissions in the world?)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 17:48:43 GMT -7
How about just assuming that the Federation worships at the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Which actually has more empirical evidence than 99% of religions. (One of its central tenets is that Global Warming is caused by a lack of seafaring Pirates! The proof is that Somalia has the highest number of Pirates, and the lowest Carbon Emissions in the world?) Mostly because there is no mention of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters in Star Trek, but why not? If there were a Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in Star Fleet, would the Bajorans find it heretical? Would that explain the lack Spaghetti in the various series and movies? Would the Klingons respect the Flying Spaghetti Monster for its resemblance to Gagh? Clearly the questions are many, and each leads down a fascinating path of insanity. I for one would love to explore each of those paths.
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Post by starcruiser on Aug 17, 2017 18:44:06 GMT -7
Per Gorn's unerring words, all such religions are heretical... Oh wait, heresy is a religious concept so...?
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Post by rabid on Aug 17, 2017 19:18:37 GMT -7
How about just assuming that the Federation worships at the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Which actually has more empirical evidence than 99% of religions. (One of its central tenets is that Global Warming is caused by a lack of seafaring Pirates! The proof is that Somalia has the highest number of Pirates, and the lowest Carbon Emissions in the world?) Edge worthy didn't they fight the spaghetti monster and it's noodly appendage in a episode of TOS or TAS? @ironnerd I thin spaghetti may have been too complicated for the replicator, personally. Also as you say probably sacrilegious. You'll never get that one pasta the sensors
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Post by JAFisher44 on Aug 19, 2017 15:26:45 GMT -7
Ok, I've deleted everything back to the last post that contained any discussion of anything other than you all talking about each other. I opened this thread back up by request because someone told me they would like to continue to discuss the actual thread topic. I'm giving this one more go but if people can't act like adults I'm just going to close it. From here forward If you want to post in here you better double and triple check your post to make sure its as nice as possible because I'm not letting it go south again. This will go the same for other controversial threads as well.
The rules: 1)Discuss FACTS and IDEAS not PEOPLE. This one seems pretty straight forward but I will clarify if people have questions.
2)Do not use deliberately insulting language. Do not refer to people as morons, retarded, assholes, etc.
3)I will allow extremely limited use of ridicule or sarcasm. I understand that ridicule and sarcasm are an important part of discourse but they lose their impact if they are employed in a scorched earth strategy. For example one might use "Magic Skydaddy" instead of "God" for impact to make a point, but when it becomes the defacto replacement in every mention it just becomes a pedantic insult. Every time you think you might want to use ridicule or sarcasm to make a point think twice. Is it really needed in that particular case? Because if I feel you are over-doing it I'll just take it away all together.
4)Treat other forum members with respect. This does not mean you can't disagree. I must stress that attacking ideas is NOT disrespecting the person who holds those ideas, even if that person holds them dearly. However, I will no longer tolerate ANY disrespect toward the member. For example, you may not call a member stupid even if that is the conclusion you draw based on their statements/beliefs. Consider the following example:
Unacceptable response:
Acceptable response:
5)I will allow profanity as long as it isn't used to violate any of the above rules.
I think these rules should be enough to keep things civil and on track but if anyone thinks I should add other rules feel free to message me and suggest them. Each person will be allowed one mistake. If you cross the line I will edit the post to fit the guidelines or delete it if I can't salvage it. After that you will be asked to leave the thread. If you refuse to leave the thread I will temp ban you. If too many people are violating the rules I'll just lock the thread.
Unfortunately this seems to be how things have to be. Maybe if everyone learns to behave we can relax a bit at some time in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 18:16:17 GMT -7
Doodes and Doodettes. Let us give our thanks to the Big Kahuna. Bringer of sand and surf, and all that is awesome. For this righteous alien dude of many powers came to this humble world when it was naught but gnarly rock and heinous wind and brought forth mountains that they gather the rains unto streams that they may merge to form rivers to flow to the mighty oceans. And when he saw the ocean was without life, he created the fishes and tasty creatures to dwell within. And when he saw the land was barren, he brought for the grasses and trees to bear fruit and nut and grain, and the animals to feed upon them, and animals to feed upon them. And the Big Kahuna looked down upon this world and said, "Well, this is boring!" so he created the Doodes and Doodettes so that they might chill upon the face of the world and create doodlings. And the Big Kahuna appeared among them as a doode and said he unto them, "I am he who has made all of this, and all of you. I am like you, and not like you for I am far advanced, yet am still of flesh like you. Care for this world and for each other, and celebrate what I have created as times of partying and joyous revelry. Make not war or violence upon one another, as this is heinous, and remarkably uncool." And many days he spent with the doodes and doodettes, but he saw that they were not content. So the Big Kahuna vanished in a flash of light. When he returned he appeared weary, and took his reast 'neath a righteous palm. After sparking up, teh Big Kahuna spoke unto the many doodes and doodettes upon the beach who had gathered to see him there. "Behold, for I brought you a moon that it may pull upon the waters of the Great Oceans and make the waters rise and fall. This I call tides. And with the tides shall there come waves upon which doode and doodette alike may ride upon boards made form the wood of the trees I have provided." As as he spoke the first wave rose from the face of the deep and curled and crashed upon the warm sand of the beach. So it is that on this first full moon of each year we celebrate that which the righteous space dude hath created; Primo Undam - the first wave.
Can I have a "Hang Ten"?
I simply could not leave a moderator post as the last one in this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2018 17:19:37 GMT -7
Y'know... This was actually a pretty interesting (if rather frustrating) thread. I would have thought it would have stayed more divorced from reality (after all, we're talking about make-believe religions, followed by make-believe aliens living on make-believe worlds, on a TV show with a rather tenuous presentation of reality). We hit on some really interesting points like where would one draw the line between god and alien in Star Trek? It depends upon who you are, actually. DS9 spent a lot of time on this topic. It showed the good and ugly that religion can bring, and showed that a believer believes, and a non-believer sees a "God" as a very advanced alien being (or an extra-dimensional entity). You don't draw a line because there isn't one to draw; either it is a god, or it isn't. Even dull old Picard was seen as a God by the Mintakan's. Clearly, he is not, and he could not convince them that he wasn't.
The Orville did an interesting job of tackling this subject in the episode Mad Idolatry.
Anyway, it sucks that things got stupid in this thread, it was mostly enjoyable. And the Doodes were a fun creative outlet.
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Post by starcruiser on Oct 13, 2018 21:57:09 GMT -7
Well, here's a belated "Hang Ten" doode!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 5:53:09 GMT -7
Arigatto, starcruiser. May the Big Kahuna bring you righteous waves, and may your shorts be free of sand. It is clear that Religion is a non-topic here, even made-up TV-show religions. Which is unfortunate since the writers of the series put a lot of effort into developing and portraying religions in their own myths. In really, so is politics (Real ones... I don't feel the need to go into the "Politics of Star Trek", because I'm pretty sure it'll devolve the same way this thread did). And that is true on so many other forums. Religion and Politics are "NO GO" topics - even where i work, we're not really permitted to discuss these two taboo topics. And everything is so politicized anymore that there are more things we can't discuss than there are things we can. In another forum (that I gave up on and left) there was a thread with the topic "Is DS9 Racist?" I was not going to step into that one. The internet was supposed to be about the free exchange of ideas (and porn apparently), but that is incredibly rare (porn, however, is quite common). Far too many disagreements turn into this thread. We can't have a real culture where we can't actually discuss any topic in a civil manner.
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Post by starcruiser on Oct 14, 2018 17:23:10 GMT -7
Oh - there's a LOT of exchange of free ideas, it's just that too much of it is idiocy!
Yep - Religion and Politics are messy subjects to get into on any internet forum today. There's always going to be someone (usually, completely unreasonable) you just can't get along with.
Time for another classic quote:
"What we've got here is...a failure to communicate. Some people, you just can't reach." (Thank you Strother Martin)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 19:32:47 GMT -7
I sometimes wish that Al Gore had made the internet harder to use. It would be cooler without the idiots.
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Post by starcruiser on Oct 15, 2018 9:14:17 GMT -7
OOhh...we CAN blame "The Android Al Gore" for that! Can't we?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 11:07:25 GMT -7
He did invent the internet.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 15:29:24 GMT -7
What a mess...
I thought it was interesting how the Bajoran religion was a pretty thinly veiled Trek version of the Catholic Church. It's also interesting that Roddenberry always presented "Gods" as frauds. Powerful aliens, a charlatan (Ardra), or a computer (which would be talked to death by Capt. Kirk).
And yet, they have a chapel on the Enterprise. Kirk alludes to the power of prayer. In Bread and Circuses, Spock expresses surprise at a sun-worshiping cult preaching universal brotherhood, opining that sun worship was primitive superstition, with no such philosophy behind it. Lt. Uhura, having monitored the planet's communications all this time, has the answer: "It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God." The Captain is astonished: "Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the Word is spreading only now."
I just think it's interesting that even Gene Roddenberry didn't fully throw off religion. I guess it made for some good story-telling.
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Post by starcruiser on Apr 6, 2021 16:21:45 GMT -7
Always has, always will... It's just a question of balance.
Oh, and I guess...welcome back?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 17:38:17 GMT -7
Domo. I think I owe a few of you thanks for your kind words to the Mod on my behalf. It's nice to post on this topic without... yeah... It is a topic I have always found interesting in Star Trek, and the discussion was always getting t-boned. But think about it as an in-game aspect. If you have Religion in say, the Romulan Star Empire, and the Romulan gov't suppresses that religion, you'll have defectors bringing information with them. You could even have religious zealots within the Federation who might steel a Starship (or sabotage ships as they go through maintenance cycles). I'm certainly not saying to use it all the time, as starcruiser says, it's a question of balance, but it does serve to break the monotony of yet another Klingon attack.
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Post by tinker on Apr 7, 2021 7:39:27 GMT -7
In the episode "Balance of Terror", there was a chapel for some type of religious services (though we can only speculate as to the total scope of those services/religions). So there are beliefs being exercised in Star Fleet.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Apr 7, 2021 15:59:53 GMT -7
You are making the assumption that the chapel is for religious services. A chapel in contemporary context is usually associated with religion but in a future where religion is much less common a chapel could just be a room for any sort of secular ceremony where the chapel layout is appropriate. Also, the Enterprise is an exploratory vessel that is supposed to find new life and new civilizations and those civilizations may have religions so it's not unreasonable to have a chapel that religious guests could use if they want.
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Post by starcruiser on Apr 7, 2021 17:31:10 GMT -7
Yes - a chapel could be meant for non-denominational services, or non-religious activities as well. I would expect that there would be less adherence to religious dogma by their time but, there would almost certainly be some people who derive comfort from the basic trappings of faith in a God or gods. Roddenberry may have been nominally atheist but, he did include a character who was Hindu in one episode (Lt. Radha in "That which Survives"), and made intermittent references to God (directly or indirectly) though, you may think he did it to make the studio relax a bit...
Ignoring religion completely would be unrealistic - especially if the stories are set only a few hundred years in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 17:54:57 GMT -7
You are making the assumption that the chapel is for religious services. A chapel in contemporary context is usually associated with religion but in a future where religion is much less common a chapel could just be a room for any sort of secular ceremony where the chapel layout is appropriate. Also, the Enterprise is an exploratory vessel that is supposed to find new life and new civilizations and those civilizations may have religions so it's not unreasonable to have a chapel that religious guests could use if they want. Good point. Would there be a possibility of Federation crewmen converting to Alien religions when they make 1st contact? It seems weird, but Marla McGivers, a completely reasonable woman who managed to get a posting on the Enterprise, falls for Khan Noonien Singh; a guy she of all people would know was really...REALLY someone to stay the hell away from. The Federation might be really advanced, but it's still made up of surprisingly flawed beings. There may be some people who just need the order and ceremony found in religion.
The Chapel does have a cross in the background, as well as some alien symbol, but they are pretty subdued.
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Post by tinker on Apr 8, 2021 10:44:50 GMT -7
You are making the assumption that the chapel is for religious services. A chapel in contemporary context is usually associated with religion but in a future where religion is much less common a chapel could just be a room for any sort of secular ceremony where the chapel layout is appropriate. Also, the Enterprise is an exploratory vessel that is supposed to find new life and new civilizations and those civilizations may have religions so it's not unreasonable to have a chapel that religious guests could use if they want. That is pure speculation on your part. We see this chapel used twice in this episode: For a wedding at the beginning (which gets interrupted) and where Kirk finds the bride to console her after her fiancée's death as she is asking why it happened. While the first could be argued as being possibly secular, the second (within the context) is beyond doubt to have the context of a spiritual situation. We see the chapel used again in "The Tholian Web" for a funeral. In "Who Mourns for Adonis", Kirk states: "...mankind has no need for gods. We find the One quite adequate." So he (at least) believes. At Spock's funeral, Scotty plays "Amazing Grace" on his bagpipes. An odd choice for an atheist. Then you have the Klingons....belief in an afterlife...a form of purgatory....not unlike the Vikings. The Vulcans have religious trappings (perhaps more in a sense of tradition) and some ceremonies, but they appear to be purely secular. The Romulans seem to have a belief in fate or destiny (to rule the stars), but may or may not have religious connotations.
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