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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2016 10:56:07 GMT -7
Before we get too far into this, it is fair to say that there are members of this forum who are opposed to religion. I am aware of the points these people may wish to bring up, but would like to state that this tread is not the place for discussions of real-world religions. This is a discussion of Imaginary Religions as they are presented on a Television program that takes place in an Imaginary Setting. Anyone wishing to discuss Real-world religions or philosophies may do so somewhere else.
Star Trek presents us with several religions or belief systems. In the universe of Star Trek, they might actually make some sense.
Bajorans: These guys have actual God Artifacts on hand. Really powerful one at that. When Sisko gets close to one, he is whisked away to some other dimension where he encounters beings who exist outside of Space-Time. For a lot of people, that sounds like “Heaven”. Sisko even becomes one of these entities at the end of the series, which would be akin to dying and becoming an “angel”. The Bajorans, who have been de-educated by the Cardassian occupiers, seem to cling to this religion as a way to maintain their identity, and as an act of defiance against their oppressors. It makes some sense, then, that the Bajorans would hold on to a religion like they do. In time, however, it seems that they would step away from seeing the “Prophets” as gods, and begin to see them as yet another alien life form.
Vulcans: Vulcan have no religion; they have a discipline. They gave up polytheism a long time ago in favor of logic.
Humans: Not much religion there, but the time of TMP we seem to have turned to science. There are probably a few “weirdo” hold-outs, but they don’t get much screen time.
Klingons: These guys claim to have killed their gods, and they actually have their god’s sword, and genetic material (they even cloned him). Following Kahless the Unforgettable is not so much a religion then. Maybe a cult or pseudo religion. But then the Klignons also believe in an afterlife quite similar to the Vikings’ Valhalla.
“Q”: Q are not gods. They have many of the abilities of Gods, and any race that has had dealings with Q would certainly see them as Gods, at least for a while. Picard had the advantage of scriptwriters (Mr. Roddenberry himself) to let him know the Q were just freakishly powerful aliens with the ability to create life and destroy it at a whim, and break the laws of physics at will. They are also jerks (much likes the ancient gods of polytheists). There are also many Q in the continuum, which might account for all the various names and personalities attributed to "God" across Star Trek cultures.
So sure, “God” is not possible in the Star Trek world (not even in ST:V), and maybe not this one either, but then so is FTL travel, time travel(going backwards), transporters, telepathy, gravity plates, and long-distance empathy that moves faster than light.
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Post by rabid on Sept 26, 2016 20:13:09 GMT -7
Don't forget the Ferengi, probably the most fully realized star trek species apart from Vulcans and Klingons. www.ufstarfleet.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ferengi_ReligionThere are many rules of acquisition, a religion based solely on profit, and your eternal reward is commensurate with your material gains. There are many rules of acquisition, I was always hoping that one would be "Disregard females, acquire currency."
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Post by pericles on Sept 26, 2016 20:19:46 GMT -7
Humans still have some sort of religion, at least in TOS as the Balance of Terror shows the Enterprise's chapel.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Sept 26, 2016 21:08:59 GMT -7
You don't have to have religion to have a chapel. Perhaps in a religionless future the "chapel" has been repurposed for general meditation and reflection, or for use in ceremonies such as promotions, awards ceremonies, etc.
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Post by rabid on Sept 26, 2016 21:13:13 GMT -7
This is true, you never saw anyone praying on the enterprise, they also didn't have a ships Chaplain, and the only spirits were dispensed by Bones.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 3:30:05 GMT -7
The Ferengi profit religion... that's a pretty good point.
I thought about the Chapel on Enterprise, but I don't recall seeing a Cross or Star of David (or even a crescent moon or a Buddha). It could be the "Generic Chapel", or it could be a multi-purpose room. I think Shakespearean actors performed in the same room.
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Post by pericles on Sept 27, 2016 6:15:55 GMT -7
Those arguments are all true, but if it was a multipurpose room, you wouldn't call it a chapel and you don't have to have any faith specific symbols for it to be a chapel. I've seen multi- faith chapels with no symbols. It is also true that they never showed a chaplain on any of the series, but they didn't show any toilets either.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 8:40:35 GMT -7
I looked over the blueprints and can't find a "Chapel" or a "Theater". I'm betting both were re-purposed break areas.
You have to figure, on a Star Fleet vessel with a diverse crew, at least some of the people on board will follow some kind of religion. Probably lots of different ones, each with a symbol that somebody is bound to find offensive - best to leave them back home and have a nice multi-use room.
It's possible that there are more Adonises out there who would be worshiped as gods by less advanced societies. Adonis could have impressed people today, and even into the ENT era (probably longer), and there would be video PROOF that he did all this amazing stuff. If he has half a brain, he'll figure out when the society is about to catch on to his parlor tricks, and move along to the next planet. By the time he left, his God status would have been ingrained into the culture making it harder to relegate him to the status of "Yet another powerful alien".
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Post by rabid on Sept 27, 2016 9:43:17 GMT -7
Those arguments are all true, but if it was a multipurpose room, you wouldn't call it a chapel and you don't have to have any faith specific symbols for it to be a chapel. I've seen multi- faith chapels with no symbols. It is also true that they never showed a chaplain on any of the series, but they didn't show any toilets either. So there's no place to put the Captain's Log?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 10:18:44 GMT -7
Three words, people "Low Residual Diet".
Actually on NCC-1701, the bridge toilet was on the storyboard side of the main viewer. To access it one need only exit the bridge (on the port side of the main viewer), walk through the access tunnel behind the viewer.
In 1701 refit and 1701A the Toilet was behind the turbolift.
I suspect the names of several all-powerful beings were invoked in these little rooms... After Romulan Ale parties, Tellarian Chili night, and after sampling local cuisine on Ptomaine IV
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Post by pericles on Sept 27, 2016 15:37:30 GMT -7
I always figured everyone just went potty in a corner and then used a phaser set on glow and go to get rid of the evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 16:30:33 GMT -7
So off topic...
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Post by Gorn on Sept 27, 2016 19:37:37 GMT -7
Balance of Terror. Kirk talks about "in accordance with our laws and our many beliefs". Implication is that religion is still kicking around for some humans at least. Thankfully we aren't subjected to it until the Bajorans with their worship of demonstrable alien life. Which they refuse to give up even when proven wrong. Sound familiar? Klingons practice hero worship. It isn't much different from how the Greeks viewed Heracles; although dialed up to 1000. There's definitely religious subtext with the return of Kahless, and some Klingons believing the prophecy was fulfilled even through a clone. Q are no more and no less 'gods' than the wormhole occupants. Several multi-dimensional, highly advanced alien species were presented to us over 50 years. Humanity has grown up enough in TOS to see that they are NOT gods at all. Kirk himself found what most humans call 'god', unsurprisingly finding it was nothing more than Adonis was, and defeated another advanced alien humanity had outgrown. That's part and parcel of Trek. It's loads more valid than JJDrek. Why do you think so many Scientists love Trek, despite the numerous Science violations and absurdities? It's alot more fun than "2001".
I always assumed the transporter would simply remove wastes and apply the energy to the ship's reserves. No more wasting time with going to the bathroom.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 5:36:47 GMT -7
<topic wrangling> I was surfing around on Ex Astris, and was reminded of one of my least favorite TNG episodes- The Tapestry. In it, Capt Picard dies, and he meets "Q" who says, "This is the afterlife, and I'm God". Then we get a crappy flashback to Picard's days at Star Fleet Academy when "Q" sends him back so he can see how things could have turned out had he acted differently. To the writer's credit, Picard did not run through the ship yelling "It's a Wonderful Life". In my rewatching of TNG, I have skipped this episode, as well as most Wesley-saves-the-day episodes.
Still, we have "Q" who must be omniscient in order to know that Picard is dying/dead. He also appears to people after they have died and announces himself to be God - which would be pointless if Picard didn't actually believe in God at some level. Then Q proceeds to warp space-time.
So, removing what you already know about Q. Disregarding the fact that you have already read the script. What would most life forms think if they were involved in an accident and "died", met God, was told by God that they were in the afterlife (which implies the counter-to-science notion that an afterlife actually exists), shown part of their life, then allowed to return to their normal lives out of this God's benevolence?
A lot of people would think, "Yep. Proof of God". I don't think this happens in the physical world - which is actually unfortunate in some ways, but in the Star Trek universe it would make more sense for religions to exist if jerks like Q are running around messing with primitive cultures.
Oddly, "Q" (who is basically a god - a petty, vengeful god) was created by GR, a noted anti-theist. Shatner brought that point up in his Documentary about the making of ST:TNG, and I thought it an interesting point.
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Post by JAFisher44 on Sept 28, 2016 6:44:19 GMT -7
I think that the message that Q portrays is that even if there are god like beings they could just be advanced aliens. There is nothing supernatural about the Q. They are just really, really advanced. They raise the question, "Even if we had strong evidence of a god would we be able to know it was a god?"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 7:47:10 GMT -7
Would it matter? (he asked, raising a brow). Were we to encounter such beings, where would we draw that line between "God" and "Hyper-advanced Alien"? Q can do all the things God is said to have done. So if the Doode people of Tubulaar IV worship a being who actually created their world and gave it sun, food, and bitchin' waves, does it matter if they call him "God" or "Q"? It's still nice of them to remember Q created all that for them, and to set aside special days to say "Thanks for the waves, All Powerful Sky-Dude". I mean... If I were a Doode, and I could prove that "Q" made Tubulaar IV as a righteous paradise for me and my fellow Doodes (and Doodettes, and Doodlings), and that Q was omniscient and eternal, I would certainly thank him for bitchin' waves whenever they came along, and probably get together with my family and friends to celebrate the high Doode holidays of "Bombadon" and "Gnarly", in the hopes of keeping Q happy ('cause I never want the waves to end, Bra.). But heck, I thank the waitress for filling my coffee just so she won't spit on my burger So I can see circumstances where such a religious following of a Hyper-advanced alien would make a sense.
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Post by MajorRacal on Sept 28, 2016 14:58:14 GMT -7
<topic wrangling> Still, we have "Q" who must be omniscient in order to know that Picard is dying/dead. He also appears to people after they have died and announces himself to be God - which would be pointless if Picard didn't actually believe in God at some level. Then Q proceeds to warp space-time. Q (and the Continuum) was already shown to have a fairly inaccurate grasp of humanity and raised a number of 'outdated' attitudes and beliefs to defend the alegations that humans were a dangerous, savage child race. At one point Wesley appeared to evolve into a magical creature with psuedo-god powers when he decided to phase through the Enterprise and floated off into space as a ball of light.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 16:34:31 GMT -7
I disagree. If Q wanted to put humanity on trial, then our history would be excellent evidence that we have been dangerous for a long time. Our peaceful period, but the time of TNG, had been rather brief, and not indicative of long term improvement. This is born out in the series by battles with the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Cardassians, and the Dominion. It is also indicated by the number of times the Enterprise crew ignores their own prime directive. We even go out and explore the galaxy in a "Ship of Exploration" that happens to be armed to the teeth - a bit like exploring Europe while carrying a Shotgun and some grenades. It is my opinion that Q let us off easy - humanity is Guilty as charged, and who but God, has ever found all of humanity guilty?
If Wesley becomes a more advanced life form, it's a mutation, and the Q would likely see it as such. If it started happening all over human space, then the race is evolving. Now imagine how the Q would view that. A crazy, primitive, violent species gaining even more power! I would keep an eye on us as well.
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Post by rabid on Sept 29, 2016 11:08:50 GMT -7
A few observations, the original series showed Hindus with Bindis, don't recall that from the next generation. Also I want to move to Tubulaar IV in time to celibrate Radicall. But if I'm not totally tubular, when I wipe out I'll be cursed and go to Gnarly. lolz. Unlike @ironnerd and his Shortboardian church, I'm of the Longboardian tradition, and we know that "Gnarly" is nothing to celebrate. Infidels. Good post on this at the exastris web page about inconsistencies of religions in Star Trek. He points out that the M-5 computer says "Murder is against the laws of Man and God", that cracked me up as it seems like a crazy thing to program into an AI. If only because it might find cyber jesus and decide it no longer answers to you.
More topically, the exchange between Picard and Q is telling. Picard is presented consistently as an enlightened, idealized human, possibly the perfect example of Rodennberry's "humanist" philosophy and a prediction of where he thought we might end up. (humanist jesus?) Picard consistently regards religion as superstition, so when he tells Q he isn't God, it's not that he refuses to believe in the face of the God-like powers, it's that he most likely doesn't believe in one at all, holding to that and the power of his own observations he rejects Q's assertion as ridiculous. It's this relationship that made me respect Picard all the more, he reveals Q to be a charlatan, he realizes even ultimate power and borderline omniscience doesn't prevent hubris. He rejects Q's power as meaning that Q must be ultimately superior to him. He has balls of steel.
BUT---later on when a Q girl is brought on board the Enterprise, Picard gives his least convincing speech about the Q, questioning their Higher Morality "I don't see it, Q". I was left with the impression that Q subtly altered the captain's behavior to make him seem less erudite. That made me hate Q all the more, probably his most singularly evil act in the whole show.
Also, I thought Wesley's transformation was supposed to be indicative of a potential change in all humanity. Notice that it's not an evolutionary step (Wesley was a normal kid) but a conscious one. His transformation is a mental paradigm shift, I got the impression that anyone could accomplish that feat with enough intelligence and will. Maybe Q was helping Picard along with that at the end of "all good things", when he said real exploration is contemplating the myriad possibilities of existence.
But then that WAY too far into 'new age' gobbledygook for my taste. It is what it is.
But Ironnerd, you forgot the Dominion:
The Gem'hadar and the Vorta worship the founders, who were genetically altered to see them as Gods, akin to the pharaohs of old.
Wouldn't you say based on that, that it's not the power an alleged God wields that matters, but rather the amount of control they can exert over your life, that's more important. A mythical God is one thing, imagine one actually standing there and putting a lash to people's backs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 12:03:41 GMT -7
I totally forgot the Dominion! And you're RIGHT, the Founders are like the Pharaohs - Gods on "Earth". Nice call. The rest of your post is total bullshit though Sorry, I could not help myself. Note: the line above is a reference to Gorn, who is noted for stating that all religion is "bullshit".You make good points about M5, Q, and Tubulaar IV (Gnarly is their "Day of the Dead" - gonna call that a nice save). And I'm totally Church of the Shortborian Saints - Monthly potlucks and no circumcisions! None of that Longboard Orthodox stuff - no shellfish? That's just weird, Bra. I never really like Q. He's ranked just below Wesley Crusher in my book. When Picard stands up to Q, I got the impression he was doing his damnedest to not give Q what he wanted - Skeered little monkey. I also figured he didn't have much to loose. I mean, if Q could just end humanity at a whim, taking out Picard, or the Enterprise would be like blowing out a candle. But then, we don't know Q's limits...
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Post by rabid on Sept 29, 2016 12:17:00 GMT -7
no...YOUR post is bullshit! I can do this all day... (Also when your Shortboardian religion leads you to wipe out and roll under the waves on the sharp gnarly reefs of damnation for all eternity, don't say I didn't warn you.)
That's true in "Encounter at farpoint", probably was less impressed with Q after he got to know him. :/
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 12:51:35 GMT -7
LOL! Nicely played!
Yeah. Once Picard got to know Q, he appears to see him as an annoyance more than a threat. I guess once you get to know "God" and he turns out to be a nut-bar, the fear and awe sort of melt away.
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Post by Gorn on Oct 1, 2016 7:41:21 GMT -7
Yes, please explain which religion is not bullshit. To quote Kirk "I'm all ears."
Seeing Q after a NEAR death experience (since you return to life) would not be "proof". It would be one line of REPORTED evidence. You have to consider the source for reported evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 16:58:32 GMT -7
Who was the old dude who lived alone on a planet with his wife? Kevin? Didn't kill an entire race in an instant out of grief? More God like powers. And Picard (et al...) are all, "We're not qualified to be your judges. We have no law to fit your crime." Weird for a few reasons. Kevin is probably not the only member of his race, and considering his power, some races would certainly worship his race as gods. Second is that the UFP probably does have a punishment for genocide, it's not like they have never encountered Hyper-powerful Advanced Alien races. Third, where was this jerk when the Borg attacked?
We keep evading a pretty simple question; where does one draw the line between hyper-advanced being and God?
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Post by Gorn on Oct 1, 2016 20:11:53 GMT -7
Where the definition is drawn. 1) Did the being actually create the Universe? Are they the mice come down into the program to watch it run? If this were so, all you do is add an extra step of "A Universe from Nothing" since the so-called god had to come from somewhere evolved, too. 2) Did the being otherwise pop by Earth int he past to interfere with pre-Science cultures and make it look like it was entirely man-made to the later Science based Western culture?
Otherwise, it's an alien with its chosen name. Add the classification of "Type 3" or "Omega" if you want.
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